even Taliban treat elders better !

Tihar has a special cell for moms-in-law - even Taliban treat elders better !
Manu Joseph
[ 21 Aug, 2006 0300hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]

NEW DELHI: The mother-in-law, that lumbering bearer of many keys and grudges, has a special place not only in Balaji Telefilms but also in Tihar jail.

A portion of Central Jail Number Six is dedicated to housing women accused in dowry-related atrocities. Endearingly called the saas-nanad barracks, the special prison is a cluster of melancholic cells flanking a corridor leading to a courtyard.

About 1,200 mothers-in-law and sisters-in-law of dead and living victims enter this cell every year and almost an equal number either get bail or are released.

At the moment, there are about 120 in-laws here, over 26% of the female prisoners in Tihar. They are chiefly semi-literate women from Delhi and the villages around who spend their days weeping, milling around any casual visitor to describe the treachery of the girls side, praying in serious groups, listening to religious lectures, and making bags for social workers.

>>>>>
Comment : Why doesn't Tihar have a special cell for Daughters in Law ? simply because Daughters in Law do NOT get arrested so easily. D.I.L.s can file a complaint, get the rest arrested and get away with it. Only the law, I mean the legal system has to answer that question. The obvious answer seems to be that mothers in law are NOT considered women, they are some how inferior women !! alas they can be arrested in large numbers and sent to Tihar. women's lib and womens rights do NOT apply to these people. Elderly women are treated as creatures !!
<<<<<<

They even observe karva chauth, and for some reason, according to information officer Sunil Gupta, they love prime time soaps despite the frequent triumphs of the young wife in those plots. Mothers-in-law who are over 60 grimly accept the privileges of being old 400 grams of milk, butter and eggs on most days.

The idea to separate the perennially stunned in-laws, usually first-time criminals, from more seasoned female inmates, was conceived when Kiran Bedi was the Inspector General of prisons, but the mother-in-law barracks were born some time in 2000.

There is wisdom in the move to sequester the in-laws. Some of these women are, without doubt, murderers. They did kill young women who came to their house in hope.

But an overwhelming majority are inside for mental torture.

>>>>>
Comment : .....and that is the catch :-( alas that IS the catch. "...An overwhelming majority of elderly women and perhaps men are ARRESTED on FALSE charges of MENTAL torture...". Since mental torture cannot be defined, these elders are ARRESTED MOSTLY ON FALSE CHARGES. This very report says that more than 90% of these women get bail !!!
<<<<<<

They may be bad persons like many women we know but not professional criminals the way prison authorities understand the term. Bedi says that she did not want veterans in immoral trafficking and kidnapping to influence those arrested in dowry-related cases.

But the mother-in-law barracks have become a howling island from where old and young women beg for release.

>>>>>
Comment : Look at the pitiable state there. They beg for release !! Their place has become a howling island. Is this what India does to the elders, the ones who brought us up ??
<<<<<<

Several police officials confirm that there is a growing trend of the girls side putting almost all the family members of the boys side in prison and negotiating release money that runs into lakhs.

Many times, enterprising daughters-in-law, even from far-flung villages, use the benevolence of law to teach a lesson to their mothers-in-law by accusing them of torture. Over 90% of the in-laws who arrive in the barracks get bail. A minuscule portion has been convicted. Just about 10 among those in the cells right now have been given a sentence.

Many of them cannot comprehend the illegality of dowry or their harassment of the bride. It was a culture that they had seen all around them, and had suffered in silence when they were young.

The complexity of bringing law into the traditional fault lines between women is disturbing the conscience of jail officials. And not everybody who is cautiously sympathetic to the jailed in-laws is male.

I wouldn't know in percentage terms but I can say that there are several cases of women arrested in dowry-related cases who turn out to be innocent or their crimes have been exaggerated, says Kiran Bedi.

The cruel harassment that young women face today is a very real issue but what exactly constitutes abetment to suicide is never clearly defined.

These days, the police are afraid of being accused of being insensitive to women. So, when the girls side files a complaint, there is a tendency to make quick arrests.

>>>>>
Comment : Wow !! police themselves are sacred of being accused !!. that's the level of fear daughters in law have created in the mind of police. If this isn't women's lib, what else is ??
<<<<<<

But the evil of dowry with its lasting scepters of charred girls has no other remedy but to raise a system in which it is easy for a woman to put her cruel in-laws in jail.

It is inevitable that such a system will send to the mother-in-law barracks, along with real murderers and torturers, aging women who had probably done nothing to deserve imprisonment.

When Diya was arrested, her son was about three months old. Her sister-in-law had been admitted in a hospital for burns. One hour after admission, she said that she had suffered the burns while cooking. Her condition improved and she returned to her family. A few weeks later, due to improper care, she died of an infection. Before that she gave a second statement implicating Diya and others from her husbands family. Diya was 23 when she was arrested. That was five years ago.

>>>>>
Comment : So.... for 5 years a poor woman who was originally NOT implicated in a case, is NOT behind bars at India's most notorious TIHAR Jail !! what do we say of this system ? is this justice ? is this the democracy that we all long for ?
do Taliban treat elders this badly ? what's happened to mera barath ?
<<<<<<

Sunita was an adolescent when she was arrested nine years ago for burning her sisterin-law who eventually died. Sunita is serving a life sentence in the special cell and she still maintains that she was in her village far away when the incident occurred.

Sunita and Diya are among the many who wail when anyone visits the cell, especially a senior police officer or a new social worker.

Through prayers and handicraft, they survive the days. But convictions are rare in dowry cases, especially for harassment charges.

The numbers of the more transient inmates though, the bulk of the population here, are growing every year.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1910510.cms

even Taliban treat elders better !

Tihar has a special cell for moms-in-law - even Taliban treat elders better !

Manu Joseph
[ 21 Aug, 2006 0300hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]

NEW DELHI: The mother-in-law, that lumbering bearer of many keys and grudges, has a special place not only in Balaji Telefilms but also in Tihar jail.

A portion of Central Jail Number Six is dedicated to housing women accused in dowry-related atrocities. Endearingly called the saas-nanad barracks, the special prison is a cluster of melancholic cells flanking a corridor leading to a courtyard.

About 1,200 mothers-in-law and sisters-in-law of dead and living victims enter this cell every year and almost an equal number either get bail or are released.

At the moment, there are about 120 in-laws here, over 26% of the female prisoners in Tihar. They are chiefly semi-literate women from Delhi and the villages around who spend their days weeping, milling around any casual visitor to describe the treachery of the girls side, praying in serious groups, listening to religious lectures, and making bags for social workers.

>>>>>
Comment : Why doesn't Tihar have a special cell for Daughters in Law ? simply because Daughters in Law do NOT get arrested so easily. D.I.L.s can file a complaint, get the rest arrested and get away with it. Only the law, I mean the legal system has to answer that question. The obvious answer seems to be that mothers in law are NOT considered women, they are some how inferior women !! alas they can be arrested in large numbers and sent to Tihar. women's lib and womens rights do NOT apply to these people. Elderly women are treated as creatures !!
<<<<<<

They even observe karva chauth, and for some reason, according to information officer Sunil Gupta, they love prime time soaps despite the frequent triumphs of the young wife in those plots. Mothers-in-law who are over 60 grimly accept the privileges of being old 400 grams of milk, butter and eggs on most days.

The idea to separate the perennially stunned in-laws, usually first-time criminals, from more seasoned female inmates, was conceived when Kiran Bedi was the Inspector General of prisons, but the mother-in-law barracks were born some time in 2000.

There is wisdom in the move to sequester the in-laws. Some of these women are, without doubt, murderers. They did kill young women who came to their house in hope.

But an overwhelming majority are inside for mental torture.

>>>>>
Comment : .....and that is the catch :-( alas that IS the catch. "...An overwhelming majority of elderly women and perhaps men are ARRESTED on FALSE charges of MENTAL torture...". Since mental torture cannot be defined, these elders are ARRESTED MOSTLY ON FALSE CHARGES. This very report says that more than 90% of these women get bail !!!
<<<<<<

They may be bad persons like many women we know but not professional criminals the way prison authorities understand the term. Bedi says that she did not want veterans in immoral trafficking and kidnapping to influence those arrested in dowry-related cases.

But the mother-in-law barracks have become a howling island from where old and young women beg for release.

>>>>>
Comment : Look at the pitiable state there. They beg for release !! Their place has become a howling island. Is this what India does to the elders, the ones who brought us up ??
<<<<<<

Several police officials confirm that there is a growing trend of the girls side putting almost all the family members of the boys side in prison and negotiating release money that runs into lakhs.

Many times, enterprising daughters-in-law, even from far-flung villages, use the benevolence of law to teach a lesson to their mothers-in-law by accusing them of torture. Over 90% of the in-laws who arrive in the barracks get bail. A minuscule portion has been convicted. Just about 10 among those in the cells right now have been given a sentence.

Many of them cannot comprehend the illegality of dowry or their harassment of the bride. It was a culture that they had seen all around them, and had suffered in silence when they were young.

The complexity of bringing law into the traditional fault lines between women is disturbing the conscience of jail officials. And not everybody who is cautiously sympathetic to the jailed in-laws is male.

I wouldn't know in percentage terms but I can say that there are several cases of women arrested in dowry-related cases who turn out to be innocent or their crimes have been exaggerated, says Kiran Bedi.

The cruel harassment that young women face today is a very real issue but what exactly constitutes abetment to suicide is never clearly defined.

These days, the police are afraid of being accused of being insensitive to women. So, when the girls side files a complaint, there is a tendency to make quick arrests.

>>>>>
Comment : Wow !! police themselves are sacred of being accused !!. that's the level of fear daughters in law have created in the mind of police. If this isn't women's lib, what else is ??
<<<<<<

But the evil of dowry with its lasting scepters of charred girls has no other remedy but to raise a system in which it is easy for a woman to put her cruel in-laws in jail.

It is inevitable that such a system will send to the mother-in-law barracks, along with real murderers and torturers, aging women who had probably done nothing to deserve imprisonment.

When Diya was arrested, her son was about three months old. Her sister-in-law had been admitted in a hospital for burns. One hour after admission, she said that she had suffered the burns while cooking. Her condition improved and she returned to her family. A few weeks later, due to improper care, she died of an infection. Before that she gave a second statement implicating Diya and others from her husbands family. Diya was 23 when she was arrested. That was five years ago.

>>>>>
Comment : So.... for 5 years a poor woman who was originally NOT implicated in a case, is NOT behind bars at India's most notorious TIHAR Jail !! what do we say of this system ? is this justice ? is this the democracy that we all long for ?
do Taliban treat elders this badly ? what's happened to mera barath ?
<<<<<<

Sunita was an adolescent when she was arrested nine years ago for burning her sisterin-law who eventually died. Sunita is serving a life sentence in the special cell and she still maintains that she was in her village far away when the incident occurred.

Sunita and Diya are among the many who wail when anyone visits the cell, especially a senior police officer or a new social worker.

Through prayers and handicraft, they survive the days. But convictions are rare in dowry cases, especially for harassment charges.

The numbers of the more transient inmates though, the bulk of the population here, are growing every year.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1910510.cms

I'm in an arranged marriage but I think I want out

I'm in an arranged marriage but I think I want out

My family in India found me a mate, but I don't think he's right for me.

By Cary Tennis

July 26, 2006 |

Dear Cary,

I am a 29-year-old woman from India. Other than two years of grad school in the U.S., I have lived all my life in India. I had a yearlong relationship when I was 22. I had expected it to end in marriage but it ended in a mess instead. I thought at the time that I had learned all the lessons there are to be learned about relationships and choosing the right man. Then at 25 I fell into a relationship with my married boss who convinced me that he was breaking up with his wife. Even as I write this I realize how clichéd that sounds. Needless to say, I feel very silly about having fallen for that line. The end of that relationship in some ways precipitated my flight to the U.S.

Arranged marriages have seen a resurgence in India and I suspect it is propelled by young people's desire to shield themselves from heartbreak. I was one of those and I agreed to marry a doctor I met just once after I returned home from the States. I thought I was taking a very sane and levelheaded decision. He came from a good family and was well liked and respected in his hospital (all this info gathered through the extended family network that goes into operation for marital missions). He had no known addictions, was reasonably good-looking according to Indian standards (not my standards, I must point out, because I like muscular, clean-shaven men and he is neither). We came from similar backgrounds and our life goals seemed to match -- raise kids, earn a lot of money and make our parents proud of us.

Three months into our marriage we had our first fight. It was nasty. We are still living apart.

Now I am not sure marrying him was such a great idea. He seems immature and his anger was shocking. Staying on in a marriage just because he is a doctor seems wrong now. I thought my decision would be right because it was dispassionate. But now I think the lack of passion should have been a warning sign. The fact that I wasn't physically attracted to him should have been enough to decide against marrying him.

How do I know if I made a huge mistake? Divorce is a big deal here, especially in my religion. But I figure the sooner we break up the easier it will be. Then again, who am I kidding? I probably won't muster up the courage to break up the marriage until he does something really horrible.

Perhaps I am being too idealistic. Perhaps all marriages are a bit like this. Perhaps passion, respect and a deep understanding between partners exists only in fiction.

Riya

Dear Riya,

I do not know what it is like to be from India but I know what it is like to live with the choices I have made. I do not know what it is like to be from India but I know what it is like to wonder if I have buckled under too easily. I do not know what it is like to be in an arranged marriage but I know that all marriages are in a sense arranged -- by relatives, by the rain, by smiles and secret dances; by children whose arrival can no longer be postponed, by the intersection of ripening desires, by thirsty hope meeting cool water.

So you ask an American what to do. To do what an American would do would be disastrous, I fear. The American shucks off his wedding tux and walks to the next town to set up a new gambling operation in a new hotel.

No one asks him where he came from there. No one cares.

You can't do that. You can't set up your gambling operation in a new hotel where no one cares where you came from. So you ask me what I would do? I would try to live within what you have already done. I would attempt to carry out the plans you had when you decided to marry: Have lots of children and make a lot of money. Absent one of the limited general grounds for divorce available to you under Indian divorce law (depending of course on whether you are Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Sikh etc.), I would try to see this thing through.

Married people fight. Fights are scary. But they are also revealing.

If you find yourself in physical danger, that should be grounds for divorce. If you find yourself being treated cruelly, or abandoned, those also should be grounds. But simply encountering, in a fight, the ugly side of the man you married -- that, I fear, is the universal discovery at the heart of marriage: Most men are flawed; they have an ugly side. You probably do too. Within limits, this is intimacy.

And what if you truly believe you have made a mistake, but cannot demonstrate grounds for divorce? Not all mistakes can be undone. Some mistakes are to be lived with. The undoing can be messier than the mistake.

Beyond that, I cannot say much. I do not know what it is like to be from India. I do not know what it is like to be in an arranged marriage. I only know what it is like to live with the choices I have made.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

http://www.salon.com/mwt/col/tenn/2006/07/26/marriage_in_india/

Law is getting turned on its head

Law, is being turned on its head


ALL ALONG, It was clear that if one stepped outside the pale of common law he or she, did NOT have the RIGHT to REMEDIES in law !!

This is the most established principle

You can't rob a supermarket and then claim the products had a defect !! You can't steal a car and complain of the mileage !

if someone DID NOT have proper marriage, he or she, did NOT have the RIGHT to REMEDIES under the marriage acts !!

One can't have a live in relationship, flirting relationship or the myriad other relationships that have sprung up outside marriage, and come back to claim benefits in law !!

None of these so called "relationships" are legally recognized form(s) of marriage

In these relationships what is the proof of co habitation ? Is a one night stand enough ? is illicitly procreation the end of all tests ? Is sex the sine qua non ? what defines a live in and when does it become a REGULAR accepted, LEGAL relationship ? what are the boundaries for society to know and recognize a live in or a flirting or ....... ?

Please find below a report from Tribune India. Look how suddenly media is trying to show that WOMEN !! in live in relationships NEED PROTECTION !! and trying to say that family courts should be involved in split up of live in relationships

Divorce, is truly becoming an industry !!

Money is in the center of all these so called women's lib moves

The Tribune, On line Edition
Sunday, August 27, 2006, Chandigarh, India
Live-in couples and their issues

With more and more couples going in for live-in relationships, the family courts of urban India are gearing up to safeguard maintenance and custodial rights of such couples in case of a separation. Vimla Patil reports

Live-in relationships are by and by gaining acceptance in urban India. Rhea Pillai and Leander Paes recently had a daughter from a live-in relationship

Comment : Just because a few celebs have had NO marriage, and some of them have had children, live ins are suddenly "..accepted..". what % do these constitute and who gave them the stamp of approval ??

TIME was when an unwed mother was naturally left to care for her children, when her partner left her. More often than naught, the father of her children refused to shoulder responsibility and the single mother was left to fend for herself and face the social stigma alone. She would be branded a ‘promiscuous seductress’ or a home breaker.

Life, at least in urban India, has changed dramatically. Not only do celebrity couples live together without marriage, but they also have children in today’s more open and liberal society. Many recent examples illustrate the increased visibility of ‘live in’ couples in the celebrity world. Actor Aamir Khan lived with now-wife Kiran Rao for a long time before he married her. Actor Saif Ali Khan is at present living with his girlfriend Rosa though he talks now and then about possible nuptials. Several television stars openly live in with their partners.

Tennis ace Leander Paes and Art of Living trainer Rhea Pillai have recently had a baby from a live-in relationship. Some time ago, wild life expert Valmik Thapar and Sanjana Kapoor, daughter of actor Shashi Kapoor, had a son called Hameer from a live-in relationship. The lifegraphs of such celebrities are seen everyday on television and in the print media and their private lives are public knowledge.

Comment : suddenly "..it is a trend..". Suddenly thousands are in live ins !! dear oh dear oh dear !! Trash all values.

Following this trend set by celebrities, thousands of middle-class couples too choose to live together today for various personal or social reasons. Some of these reasons are: society and families no longer frown upon ‘live in’ relationships as much as before and couples who do not wish to make lifelong commitments prefer to live together before getting married.

Others say they need to know each other better before they tie the knot of permanence. Yet others live together due to circumstances such as work requirements or for saving money by keeping one house rather than two. Lastly, young men and women live together because they no longer believe in the traditional sanctity of marriage.

Comment : How does live in make it cheaper ? who said married couples needed two houses ? !

Whatever may be the reason behind the fast growing trend, with its proliferation, problems of another kind are emerging. For instance, when a live-in couple decides to have children, who should have the custodial rights in case of a separation? When a ‘live in’ couple decides to split, what are the rights of the woman regarding maintenance?

What is the legal scenario when the relationship sours?

With so many couples — mainly from the educated, affluent middle class — choosing to live together, the family courts in metros like Mumbai have decided to step in and help resolve disputes.

For instance, the Mumbai family court is now poised to hear a case of child custody where two professionals — one Punjabi and one Keralite — have lived together and had a son. It is reported that both parents are seeking the custody of the child while the mother has approached the court for a declaration that the child is born of the couple; therefore the custody should be given to her and that she would seek no maintenance after the split. In another case, the unwed parents of a daughter are fighting bitterly for her custody. In the latter case, both parents are highly educated engineers.

Lawyers like Nilofer Akhtar say that family court laws in metros can hear a petition from a partner in a live-in relationship to seek legitimacy for the children born to her. Further, she says that such a court can, within its jurisdiction, decide who will have the custody of the child/children in case of a separation. "Conventionally, the court prefers to give custody to the mother in such cases," says the family court lawyer, "but this arrangement is usually for the first six years of the child’s life. Then the court can decide which parent is more equipped to offer the child a better and secure life. What emerges out of the recent cases is that more live-in fathers are now interested in fighting for the custody of such children because they feel that the children of such unions can have better opportunities to live a full life under their care.

"In general," continues the lawyer, "Couples who live together without marriage avoid having progeny. In some cases, children are born of a relationship out of wedlock but not in a live-in relationship. Many who have affairs clandestinely — though they are partners in regular marriages — have children. Workplace or college romances often result in the birth of children.

Comment : somehow the kid, its feelings, the kid's need for both parents, mental problems of single parenting, imbalanced children... all these are forgotten by these media !! alas, the kids are the biggest causality in this game where money and power and glitter are in forefront

Invariably, in every case of separation, divorce (where couples are married) and in cases where children are born out of wedlock, the most passionate court battles happen where child custody is concerned. If the children are not infants, each partner tries to pressurise them to choose him or her in preference to the other. What happens in regular divorce cases, is repeated in cases where live-in couples choose to split. Children are used as pawns to force partners to negotiate in the bitter battles that follow."

"Though only some cities in India have full-fledged family courts in place,

Comment : and thankfully in other places it will be the civil courts that handle divorce case. What about divorce being criminalized with FALSE dowry case ? that's another story after all.....

it seems that in metros like Delhi and Mumbai, the legal issues concerning the union of live-in couples and the status of their progeny will increasingly come under the scanner of law because such cases are proliferating and have become an accepted part of the urban social scenario," say social activists and women lawyers.


http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060827/society.htm#1

'sometimes it is fun to flirt with somebody's wife or husband' !!??

'sometimes it is fun to flirt with somebody's wife or husband' !!??

This is not some hollywood celebrity or drug addict from Amsterdam. The is from an Indian !!! wake up wake up !! Is this India ??

Are we the 3000 year old civilisation that every one from Max muller to the Indologist to the parivar wants us to believe we are ?

Are we part of the continuous culture from Sage Bharatha ? or Saint Thomas ?

or are we the latest hollywood punks !!

Change is inevitable. That accepted, the rate of change in the Indian marital relationships, is truly amazing to say the least.

Suddenly in India, author Shobhaa Dé in the name of "..defending marriage..", says 'sometimes it is fun to flirt with somebody's wife or husband'

Wow! what a discovery Ms. De ?

Is this the new plague to hit us all ? the Europeans have found antidotes to their plagues and pestilence from outside. But what about the plagues from within ? what about the breakup of the marriage - the bed rock of Indian society ? What happens to our core values and core institution - the Indian family ??!!

People are already asking if family is dead. I'd say its NOT yet, but fast dying

Old age homes are overflowing in India. In a land where Athithi dEvo Bava was part of the scripture, elderly parents are on the streets, thanks to a new age generation that does NOT care for elders. Add flirting and marriage break up, and you have new cocktail

In the next 10 years MORE AND MORE ELDERS will be on the streets since more and more sons or daughter in laws would be having flirts and would NOT have time for elders.

My comments in blue to the news item below

The deconstruction of infidelity, courtesy Bollywood

By Lamat R. Hasan Aug 24, 2006, 12:30 GMT

New Delhi, Aug 24 (IANS) The notion of infidelity in marriages - a hitherto taboo subject in India - is being deconstructed like never before after Bollywood director Karan Johar's three-hour film 'Kabhi Alvida Na Kehna' (KANK) opened to full houses earlier this month.

News channels are going live with shows that explode the hypocrisies of relationships gone wrong and newspapers are dedicating the sacred edit space to debate if marriage is a dead institution.

We have Bollywood heartthrob Shah Rukh Khan saying 'marriage and infidelity are the same' and 'sometimes it is fun to flirt with somebody's wife or husband'; author Shobhaa Dé defending the institution of marriage, but claiming that infidelity is a 'non-issue' for today's generation; and the very eligible Karan Johar saying 'marriage is not for me'.

Shah Rukh-speak is endorsed by his fans on the web: 'I totally agree with Shah Rukh. Sometimes it is fun to flirt with somebody's wife or husband. This brings some kind of freshness,' says G. Shobhana. Another comment by Manish reads: 'Marriage is an outdated institution. It is on its way out in India too. The intelligent youth can see that it does not suit this age.'

In this sea of contradictions the only clear message we get is: Every one cheats. And infidelity after all is not a big enough reason to walk out of a marriage/relationship.

>>>>
Comment : If that is the case then Indian laws are also to be amended. Women or men should NOT be allowed to seek alimony or maintenance from their partner because anyhow now, IF people can take marriage so lightly and look for freshness outside, why look for succour only inside the marriage
<<<<

Neshat Kaiser, a senior sociologist, who patiently sat through a KANK show says, 'I think infidelity in marriages is an interesting theme; that's why the channels are treating it as an issue of national importance. Who knows if the shows are manufactured?'

Manufactured or not the shows have got everyone talking - about infidelity, about marriage and about love.

A 24-year-old journalist thinks her chances of getting involved with someone are 'very high' after marriage. 'I believe that human beings are many-partner animals,' she reasons. But she is not willing to write off the institution of marriage so easily for its many comforts.

Adds Anurag Basnet, 22, who works for Penguin India: 'You can cheat on your spouse as long as you don't get caught.' Asked why relationships don't last, he says, 'Lots of reasons but mainly because people get bored.'

>>>>
Comment : But look at what's happening at the Family courts. Bored or not bored, when women file for maintenance the judges are forced to sit thru the entire morass and ask the husbands to pay. Well... if infidelity is the order of the day, why even consider marriage a legal institution ? However IF, REPEAT IF marriage is such a legal, binding institution, why allow infidelity ?
<<<<

Kaiser argues that human beings are essentially promiscuous and have always been disloyal. 'From the time of Babylon we have been cheats. There is no married man or woman who has not thought about someone else at some point of his/her life. If there is an element of desire even in the thought process it amounts to infidelity.'

>>>>
Comment : Somehow Hindu Marriage act that was made in 1955 still believes Infidelity is wrong !!! and that's where the disjoint between society today and law of the last century !!!
<<<<

Shinie Antony, author of 'Planet Polygamous', a book about infidelity, says: 'Affairs are open-ended, a fresh slate, power play. Like a new face cream, it's an anti-ageing illusion, playing up a misplaced craving for spontaneity.'

But infidelity is not easily defined.

'If you have a boyfriend and don't sleep with your husband, then you are being faithful to the former, isn't it? And if a guy is having an affair but occasionally sleeps with his wife, technically he is sinning,' adds Antony.

Under such circumstances it is best to walk out of a marriage, suggests Kaiser, 'Couples are not conjoined twins that they cannot separate easily. A break-up is always emancipating and liberating.'

But what happens to the children?

'They did not demand to be born. So it is up to the parents to minimise their suffering. Children are attached not due to biological determinism but due to social determinism. The process of parting is painful, but those who have learnt to live with flies and mosquitoes can tackle infidelity in marriages,' argues Kaiser.

>>>>
Comment : Wow !! : Marriage and commitment in marriage equated to flies and mosquitoes !!. This should be a new low ?? or a high ? in Indian thought process !!
<<<<

According to Dr. Sanjay Chugh, a leading psychiatrist in New Delhi, people who are dissatisfied in marriage turn outside to fulfill those needs. The need could be sexual pleasure, emotional security, appreciation, approval, or plain simple love.

Chugh says there are two types of people seeking love (or whatever else) outside marriage.

'The first kind has a tendency to keep moving from one person to another. The second kind has been in a state of deprivation for long and so finally, post-saturation, they decide to step out.

'Both kinds are looking for easy solutions without knowing what the problem is. A person in such a situation invariably presents himself or herself as a victim.'

The fact also is that divorces are becoming more acceptable.

'We often find people walking into a marriage with the option of divorce in mind. They are constantly trying to look for escape routes instead of trying to understand how they managed to invite a particular problem,' he adds.

Many people feel they are married to their jobs; many more feel they are married to their co-workers or office-spouses - as they are now called.

So is it time to say good-bye to the institution of marriage?

'No,' says Dr. Samir Parikh, chief psychiatrist, Max Healthcare. 'Family dynamics are changing, but the institution of marriage is not dead yet. No one compromises his/her marriage so easily.'

'Every one is vulnerable to attractions - this is a lifelong experience. Whether one has an affair or not is a different issue. But our inhibitions are falling easily because every one around us is doing the same thing.'


http://news.monstersandcritics.com/india/article_1194001.php/The_deconstruction_of_infidelity_courtesy_Bollywood

Something amazes me about Overseas Indians in America

Something amazes me vis a vis Overseas Indians in America


- American Indians are one of the richest (or may be THE richest Ethnic group) in the United States of America

- Many of them are VERY affluent

- a vast majority of them are WELL educated [... while the situation may NOT be the same with Indians in the Arabian Gulf or Fiji Indians or other Overseas Indians elsewhere where the number of underqualified Indians is large ]

- The Indians in USA, thanks to Internet, must be well connected (at least with each other !!)

- Most Indian political parties make trips to USA and enjoy the hospitality of these US Indians

- Members from both the US parties are known to approach Indians for fund raising etc

- However the US Indians are NOT able to change this NOT VERY BIG / INCOMPETENT ministry's (MOIA's) view of Indian Americans !

- For a long time the Ministry of Overseas Indian Affairs' (MOIA) has been having a very negative view of Non resident Indian marriages

- This ministry is NOT even a part of the External affairs ministry - it's a small / independent one

- In the order of things in India, Finance, defense, Food and Agri, Railways, Home Affairs, etc.. are the biggies. The rest are medium ~ small.

- what 'am I missing here ?


regards
vinayak




>
>
>21239
>Date: Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:58 pm
>Subject: Ministry Of Overseas Indian Affairs Must Withdraw Derogatory Statements Against Overseas Indians
>
>
>Hi All,
>
>The 'Ministry of Non-Resident Indians' Affairs'
>was created vide notification No. Doc.CD-160/2004
>dated 27 May 2004 issued by the President of India.
>Subsequently, vide notification No. Doc.CD-278/2004
>dated 3rd September 2004, it was renamed the
>'Ministry of Overseas Indian Affairs' (MOIA).
>
>The MIOA started Web-site in September 2005.
>http://moia.gov.in/showinfo1.asp?linkid=245
>
>The web-site made several sweeping and derogatory
>statements against Non-Resident-Indians (NRI's)
>Families and more particularly against Canadians
>and Americans of Indian-Origin; in the Topic
>dealing with "Failed and Fraudulent Marriages"
>
>http://moia.gov.in/dfmain1.asp?tid=1
>
>The said Topic invited viewers to post their
>Opinions and also to view the opinions posted by
>viewers.
>
>Several people recorded protests and the recorded
>opinions were Blocked beyond first 10 opinions.
>
>Till now 70 opinions have been recorded during the
>year according to web-site and 60 opinions posted
>on site have been Blocked from viewers.
>
>Highlights of visit to USA of "Overseas Minister
>in June 2006 Says
>http://moia.gov.in/showinfo1.asp?linkid=314
>
>"(d) Some Indians said that the Ministry should
>follow a more balanced approach regarding
>fraudulent marriages involving overseas Indians. In
>some cases the grooms were harassed and had to pay
>huge money for out of court settlements. The
>Ministry has taken an impartial stand on the matter
>and addressed the issue of marriages to OIs be it
>male or female.
>
>(1) Now in view of the above the MOIA must be
>asked to immediately withdraw the derogatory
>statements on the wed-site, and apologise for
>sweeping statements made there-in.
>
>(2) Release the Blocked of 60 Opinions on the web-
>site with immediate effect under the "RIGHT TO
>INFORMATION ACT"
>
>Regards
>

"Rich women" divorce more !

"Rich women" divorce more !

It didn't need a study to conclude that Rich women divorce more !!. That was known to most husbands at the receiving end !! However this particular study confirms the fears and adds a stamp of credibility ...well.... lets say "..fears have been confirmed ..."

This isn't US or UK. Rich women all over the world are more likely to divorce. So is the case in India !

Fashion took 4 years to travel from Paris to Mumbai. Culture took longer. Sometimes culture was NEVER copied, for Indians prided of a superior culture. We felt we were superior and so didn't wish to ape the west on cultural issues.

...Alas ! gone are those days !

Indians run to ape the west now. Not just the same cars bu the same life as well. Divorce included ....

Number of divorces have tripled in the last few years in Mumbai. Population is growing by 5% ~ 7% but divorces have tripled !! Every metro has multiple marriage courts and every court is overflowing. This IS the status EVEN at conservative Chennai .... well ..... I'm NOT talking of La Vegas !

Well.....Well.....Well.....

what to say

The west is trying to civilize us I suppose !!!

But some things are different in the west. In the west, rich women are made to pay their "..not so rich husbands..." on divorce. In the west, its gender equality before the eyes of the law. Unlike in India, where MOSTLY men are made to pay. Our courts are still in the 16th century mindset. Men are the breadwinners - as they were hunter gatherers and women stayed at home and cook !! Add the lethal FALSE dowry case cocktail to this and you will see many innocent men being bankrupted. They are looted and the loot is shared between the Lawyer and the irate wife who wishes to divorce

Divorce in India has come at a cost. It's not just the family, but many innocent men are also paying !!


Rich women more likely to divorce

[ 22 Aug, 2006 0036 hrs IST AGENCIES ]

The richer a woman becomes, the more likely she is to divorce her husband, new research has found. The findings suggest a marriage becomes destabilized not simply because a woman's income has risen, but because her success starts to outstrip that of her husband.

According to the researchers, this may be because the balance of power shifts, making the woman less likely to accept being lumbered with most of the household chores and increasing the chances of rows.

Another reason may be that a woman's greater earning power makes her more confident that it will be financially viable to leave her husband and pay a good divorce lawyer.

"Greater financial independence clearly makes the decision to divorce much simpler," says the study by Randall Kesselring, an economics professor.

"It also appears that a female's economic success may, indeed, cause friction within the family." Kesselring cites "fragile male egos" reacting negatively to women's raised status as an additional source of tension.

Kesselring, professor of economics at Arkansas State University in the US, reached his conclusions after examining the finances of 112,740 women, of whom 16,760 were divorced and 95,980 married.

His findings suggest that women's growing financial success has been a strong factor in the rising number of divorces.

In 2004, the number of divorces granted in the UK rose 0.2% to 167,116, the fourth successive annual increase.

He argued that for every £10,000 a wife's earnings increase relative to the family's overall income, the chances of marital break-up rise by 1%.

Lawyers confirmed this weekend that greater financial independence for women was leading them to take the initiative in divorce in growing numbers.

Louise Spitz, a divorce lawyer at Manches, a London law firm, said: "Financial independence for women has given an impetus to divorce for the simple reason that they don't have to put up with what they otherwise might have had to."

Other experts point out that increasing career success cuts the time available for women to carry out domestic tasks.

Anastasia de Waal, head of family and education at the think tank Civitas, said: "Rather than there being an equal division of labour, mothers who work full time, for example, tend to do considerably more childcare and housework than their male partners."

Some high-earning women have found that divorce comes at the cost of making a pay-out to their less wealthy husbands. Kate Winslet paid £500,000 to her husband of three years, director Jim Threapleton, when they divorced in 2001.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1913939,curpg-2.cms

Sex is important in married life

Sex is important in married life

Sex is important in married life. No denying that. Marriage without sex is sterile. So I am NOT asking people to abstain from sex.But what happens when there are NO children out of marriage ? can the women just turn up at the nearest police station and start filing complaints ?? dear ..oh ...dear ..oh ...dear...

Look at the news below : Both the spouse claim that the other spouse is incapable of producing a child. First - that is NOT impotency. That is sterility !! and sterility is NOT a cause for complaint, NOT even for divorce. Second the wife seems to have gone to police !

If a man (or for that matter woman ) is sterile, that's just an act of god. What can some one do if he / she is sterile ?

That too Indian males DO NOT check if he is impotent or sterile before marriage ? we do NOT have the concept dating around before marriage - at least most men do NOT seem to be dating around / sleeping around before marriage.

Pre marital sex is still taboo in most places though attitudes are changing ! Statistics say that only 30% or so of the females have had sex before marriage (mumbai census!). Lets assume thats the same for men. 30% might have checked it out ! what happens to the remaining so called honest 70% or the "..not so developed.." 70%, traditional Indian men, who have NOT checked out their sterility, potency etc ? are the ones who don't sleep around before marriage in danger ?

Where are we heading to ?

As I said, if a man is impotent, that is just an act of god. Its as much as getting a heart attack or getting diabetes when young. How can law regulate this or even register a complaint against a physical deformity ? should all men "..TEST their assets.." before marriage ? Will the sati savithris of India accept men who have slept with other women ? BEFORE marriage ?

So what next ? ...advertisement in the THE HINDU's matrimonial column stating, "..needed men who have at least 3 years pre marital sex experience and who have confirmed their potency ." !! Well...Well...Well...

Woman wants her ‘impotent’ spouse held
8/18/2006 11:41:48 PM
- By Rabindra Nath Choudhury

Bhubaneswar, Aug. 18: The police in the western Orissa town of Bargarh on Thursday found itself in a piquant situation when a woman demanded the arrest of her husband for his "impotency".

The woman told the Rusda police that her husband had failed to satisfy her physically and sought his arrest.

The police has not yet been able to register any case in this regard as there is no provision under the law to book a man for failing to meet his wife’s physical needs. "It is better that the couple resolves the issue amicably," Bargarh SP N.B. Bharti said. The police has asked the couple to go for medical treatment.

The 25-year-old woman, a native of Padepalli village near Bargarh town, had earlier run away from her husband’s house. The complainant told the police that she had "tolerated" her husband’s "impotency" for three years before deserting him.

"Though she initially accused her husband of torturing her for dowry, the woman later said the dispute between them was over his ‘impotency’," Rusda outpost officer in charge C.D. Pradhan said. He, however, refused to reveal the identities of the couple.

The couple got married in 2002 and blamed each other for not being able to produce a child, the police said. Mr Pradhan said the woman had requested the police to ask her husband to accompany her to a doctor.

We don't need terrorists from Pakistan !!!

We don't need terrorists from Pakistan or missiles from China to finish us off !!!

We DON'T need terrorists from Pakistan to bleed this country. Internal terrorists bleed us by the day, by the hour using FALSE dowry cases. A Husband committed suicide due to harassment of false dowry case. Look at the way the "ENTIRE" family (Husband's family) has been under threat !! why ? ?

why oh.. why ?

National statistics show that men commit more suicides than women ! are all their wifes hung by the nearest pole ? why oh.. why should men be assumed guilty when the wife dies - that too she dies AT HER OWN FATHER'S HOUSE ??

When will this atrocity stop ? what a loss to the society & to the parents who lost an innocent MAN due to a false dowry case !

My hands tremble when I read about this case. 10s of 1000s of Indians have been charged with FALSE dowry cases and many have committed suicide due to the high handedness of police and un scrupulous lawyers who scheme to extract maximum money from such hapless Indian men

Matrimonial cases have to handled by counseling centers. NOT police !!!


News item : Husband committed suicide due to harassment of false dowry case
News published in Rajasthan patrika, 18th Aug,06

His wife also committed suicide 4 months back.

Gajendra Singh Rajawat 29 yrs, was resident of Jaipur. He was accused in the dowry death case of his wife, consumed poison, and was found dead in hotel room in pushkar near Ajmer on 17th Aug. In suicide note he mentioned about the pressure from his in-laws for the reason of his suicide. On Wednesday 16th evening, he arrived at Room no. 212 of Hotel Ratan Haveli at Pushkar.

In suicide note he alleged that his in-laws are responsible for his act. In suicide note, he wrote that this in-laws were asking Rs.25 Lacs for compromise, and he asked that his FIL including others should be punished. Police lodged a complain against his in-laws. His Father inlaw: Yuvraj Singh.

His married Suman Kanwar on 12 Feb 2006. After 2 months, on 12 April his wife's body was found hanging from fan at in-laws place. Suman's father registered dowry death complaint at Jaipur against family members. Gajendra was arrested, and then got bail afterwards he was threatened for life by his in-laws.

Gajendra's family members said that his wife never wanted to marry him, and marriage happened against her wishes, which is the reason why she committed suicide. His friend Pramod Khandelwal said that Ganjendra told him that all the family members are in great problem due to him. He was working in 3 star hotel as a security officer.

Misguided feminism is China's latest ally !!

Misguided feminism is China's latest ally !!


Often, China has wanted to attack India. At times militarily, at times economically and many a time politically.

Of late China is very concerned with India's march towards progress. Indian stock markets have outperformed China the last two years

Now China is using one more weapon, propaganda, to attack India and BLOW OUT OF PROPORTION marital problems in India.

As if divorce is NOT prevalent in China, as if family feud in un common in China ..., Chinese press is portraying Indians - especially NRI in bad light.

China is ever interested in negative publicity about India and wastes no time in propagating and spreading lies about India.

This Chinese communist propaganda, is able assisted to by, the so called feminist gang in India. I say so called because this gang is also NOT about doing good to India or India Families. These are NGOs that perpetually portray a negative outlook on India

A few un scrupulous NGOs and un scrupulous lawyers in India, in active connivance with a few revengeful wifes, seek to over amplify and file false dowry cases against rich and successful Indian men, with a view to milking the men of Lakhs of alimony. It's all in the name of feminism ....

Even the Supreme court has come down heavily upon false dowry cases.

Still the false propaganda and portraying India as a curry, chutney and charred woman country continues. Dowry is one more dimension to it

Misguided feminism in India is China's latest ally in China's propaganda against India

Please note the report below. See how China has picked up some un confirmed reports with NO verification whatsoever and posted it on its ENGLISH language websites !. Look at the vitriolic against NRI in particular, a group China envies, as Indians abroad directly compete with overseas Chinese diaspora !

I just see only one silver lining in this whole news article from CHINA DAILY. That they are seeking "...suggest bilateral pacts with countries with a large Indian population to facilitate recognition and enforcement of -foreign divorce decrees, ..."

My comments below are in blue



Indian brides seek protection

Dear oh Dear .... China is worried about it !!

Updated: 2006-08-15 09:50 NEW DELHI - Sonal Agarwal says her disfigured face is a constant reminder of the most terrifying night of her life - her wedding night.

"My husband just went crazy. He said he wanted to kill me and lashed out at me with a knife and cut my face." said Sonal, tugging a blue scarf covering her head to hide slash wounds on her left cheek.

The 22-year-old student from the north Indian city of Chandigarh thought she was heading for a prosperous new life in the West with a British-born Indian doctor after he chose her from scores of women who replied to his advert seeking a bride.

But after leaving her family and homeland to live in the UK, Sonal found her new husband was a fraud.

"He was mentally sick and wasn't a doctor and didn't have a job. His family tricked me and now my life is finished," she said.

Women's groups say every year hundreds of starry-eyed girls seeking a better life in the West are duped into wedlock by men of Indian origin living in the diaspora -- in countries like the United States, Britain, Canada and Australia -- mostly for money.

"Thousands of Indian men in the West come here and advertise in matrimonials every year," said Yogesh Mehta from the National Commission for Women, a government body for women's rights.

"While many are honest about who they are, there are also a lot who lie about their jobs, economic and marital status often to get the dowry," he added.

Dowries -- often jewelery, expensive clothing, motorcars and money -- are given by the bride's family to the groom and his parents, traditionally to ensure the bride will be comfortable in her new home.

The custom, outlawed in India more than four decades ago but still widely practiced, is often exploited with the groom's family demanding more money in return for not abusing the bride.

Women's groups say the number of women marrying men of Indian origin living overseas or Non-Resident Indians (NRIs) is rising proportionately as the Indian population overseas increases.

Consequently, there are an increasing number of complaints from women who are victims of fraud or "cheat" marriages.

"Everyday we get around three complaints just to our ministry alone from women who are victims of these marriages," said one official from the ministry of Overseas Indian Affairs.

Comment : Note the tactic here ! 3 out of how many happy homes ? is NOT shown. How many of these 3 are false is also NOT shown. Its a known fact that the Indian courts are littered with 10s of 1000s of FALSE dowry cases !!

"It's a serious issue which needs to be tackled as some of the stories of what happens to these girls can be quite shocking," the official added.

Very often the women go abroad after the wedding only to find themselves abandoned with no one turn to, no money, no ability to speak the local language and no knowledge of the norms and customs of the alien country.

Other women tell tales of being battered or kept prisoner in the home and treated like domestic workers. Some even find their new husband is already married to someone else.

There are also cases of "holiday brides" -- women abandoned in India within days or weeks of marriage with the husband promising to return once visa arrangements have been made for his wife, but never actually doing so.

There are no accurate numbers on how many cheat marriages take place, but some reports say India's northern state of Punjab, which has a large community overseas, has so far registered 15,000 cases alone.

Comment : This so called Punjab statistics is an un confirmed lie told many times

Other states like Gujarat and Kerala have also seen cases.

But activists say the number of deceived brides is under-reported with many unwilling to speak out, fearing the shame and stigma associated with being a divorced or separated woman in traditional Indian society.

Comment : There are also many activists who say that most cases are over amplified. Of the false dowry and false harassment cases that reach court, most are for money and revenge. Elders - especially the husband's mother and father get arrested - as the Daughter in Law wants to teach them a lesson :-(. Lakhs and sometimes even crores of alimony is sought ! The booty is divided between the lawyers and the irate daughter in law. Many men and their families have died and some have even committed suicide !!

In many parts of India, a match for their daughter with an Indian living abroad is coveted by parents lured by the prospect of greener pastures for the entire family.

Eager not to let go of such lucrative offers, the families often ignore the common cautions that are observed in traditional Indian matchmaking.

"If a marriage proposal comes from a man in India, then checks are made about him and his family through mutual acquaintances and other ways," said Sneha Singh, a social worker and victim of a fraud marriage to an Indian living abroad.

"But when it's an NRI no one bothers to check anything because he is from the West so he is thought to be rich and respectable."

Comment : Rural India is quite different from Urban India. this report follows the regular ploy of mixing rural statistics which sometimes gets violent between families, and mixes that with cases of NRI groom from the cities, to show entire India in bad light !

Activists say social awareness campaigns must be held advising families to check a groom's background -- perhaps through his voter registration card, social security number, employment record and tax returns -- which would show his true status.

They also argue legislation must be reviewed as even those brides brave enough to seek justice get entangled in a web of legal complexities due to the different laws pertaining to marriage in India and the country where the NRI husband is from.

Activists suggest bilateral pacts with countries with a large Indian population to facilitate recognition and enforcement of -foreign divorce decrees, child custody orders and property rights.

India must also make it compulsory for marriages to be registered which will give more legal protection to the duped bride, women's groups add.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2006-08/15/content_665006.htm

My wife has filed a false 498A ! should I file for divorce ?

Subject to
------------------------------------------------
1. my idea of *self help* which is very essential :
http://tinyurl.com/pxcfz

2. standard disclaimers as in http://tinyurl.com/947u9

>>
>>My wife has filed a false 498A case against me
>>/or/
>>My wife is about to file a false 498A case against me and my relatives.
>>Should i file for divorce?
>>

This is a common question that I face.

Staying together or parting is a very personal decision. I believe that one has to make a careful analysis of the situation before coming to a conclusion. Haste IS waste in this.

However for the sake of this discussion, let's assume that the husband has made a reasoned decision that he cannot stay with the wife, and he has approached us with this question ....

>>
>>Should i file for divorce?
>>


My 2 cents

If you are a hindu, and you are a MALE seeking divorce, and your wife has NOT yet sought DIVORCE (she might have filed other criminal cases, but as long as she has NOT sought divorce), then, your divorce case will have to be based on very strong evidence necessitating the divorce

Generally in cases like yours, the reasons for a divorce under the Hindu Marriage Act are :

1[(i) adultery

(ia) cruelty; [pl. NOTE that normal quarrel between husband and wife is NOT sufficient. Cruelty has to be of such a nature that you cannot possible live with your wife or vice versa ]

(ib) desertion (one spouse totally leaving the marriage & matrimonial home) - Not only a voluntary physical desertion but also un willingness to resume co habitation

(ii) conversion to another religion; or

(iii) incurable lunacy, mental disorder etc.

(iv) virulent and incurable form of leprosy [of the other spouse]

(v) venereal disease in a communicable form; [of the other spouse]

(vi) renouncing the world by entering any religious order; [by the other spouse thereby making the marriage impossible to continue]

(vii) disappearance for a period of seven years or more

So it may be pretty premature to file for divorce JUST BECAUSE your wife has filed a 498A

while one may kick and scream that the 498A is false, the courts have to agree to that (i.e) the criminal case should be either quashed or decreed in your favour to claim that the 498A is false

Further ... : In many cases (where men file for Divorce), just based on a false 498A, women run to the courts and try to get the court's sympathy stating that "..not only did the husband treat the wife cruelty, but also he is trying to divorce her !!..", ....

So I would suggest that you do NOT file for divorce immediately.

Wait.

Read the pages of save Indian Family and slowly learn the issues

>>
>>Will that weaken her case of 498a in any way?
>>

As I explained above, your civil case / petition for a divorce will NOT weaken her case.

It may if any be used as a weapon by her !!

So it is suggest you wait and watch her next move on the 498A front

You will have to monitor and follow up on the criminal - 498A case filed by her

>>
>>3) How much would be the maintenance I may be
>>required to pay if I seek a divorce.
>>

This is THE catch

If you file for divorce (before she files), and if you DO NOT HAVE ANY clinching reasons as mentioned above, she will try to get maintenance from you - especially if she is un employed

In cases where you cannot show just or sufficient cause NOT to live with her, maintenance could be AS MUCH AS 1 / 5 th of your salary (or if she is also employed upto 1 / 5 th of the difference in salary]

So do NOT file for A divorce and do NOT give her a chance to harass you with further petitions for maintenance

- Divorce is costly - FOR Indian MEN !!, for In India, MEN INVARIABLY pay alimony at the end of a divorce

- In India, if you are hindu, your wife of 4 months may seek alimony for the rest of her life !! Unlike the west there are no graded scale !! we still have a HINDU marriage act, a PARSI law, a CHRISTIAN law and so on ...

- Still our family courts are in the 16 century mode and imagine that MEN have to pay and women just receive. Women lib and all talk about gender equality is FORGOTTEN the moment men are asked to pay. Men, especially Hindus, approaching a troubled relationship have to make clear plans on how and what they would do, SHOULD THEY separate from their wife

>>
>>4) Apart from anticipatory bail, what should i do in
>>order to weaken the 498a case against me / possible 498A case against me
>>

Try and collect proof

Collect as much proof as possible

The more proof you collect, the weaker her case becomes

are they threatening you about this dowry case. Can you record it ? please note that recorders are available in most cities and are reasonably in expensive when compared to the trouble you have to go thru with these false cases

IF YOU HAVE VERY good proof you can win the FALSE 498A case and that it self can become grounds for you to file cases against her..


>>
>>I'm abroad. My wife is in India.
>>Can I divorce her here (i.e.) in the UK / US .... abroad ?
>>will that EXPARTY divorce decree help me ?
>>

Suffice to say, Ex-party divorce decrees, that too from abroad where the wife was NOT abroad at the time of the decree, are very difficult to enforce in India.

Without going into much detail, let me say that, if at all, this EXPARTY decree may also prove as counter productive as an Indian divorce move (as explained above) and on top of it, it would be rather simple for your wife to claim that she was totally unaware and cheated by this foreign divorce (if it is EXPARTY )

As long as you do NOT have a great advantage by that foreign EXPARTY divorce decree, better stay away from such a move

Pl. NOTE :
A normally contested (fought in court) foreign decree may or may not be admissible in Indian courts subject to provisions of sec 13 of C. PC. So my discussion above is for EX party decrees only

If you want to to impose adultry on the India do so please. Do NOT pull in Tamil Nadu into the scene

If you want to to impose adultry on the India do so please. Do NOT pull in Tamil Nadu into the scene


Open letter To :

- Amrit Dhillon, New Delhi
&
- The Editor Asian Age publications



about Chinna vIdu !!


Some one wants to make a movie and make money

As audiences are bored with

- cancer killing love
- father or father in law killing love
- family fued killing love
- religion killing love
- triangle love
and all sorts of love and love variations at bollywood....

the great fountainheads at bollywood, must have now started with extra marital for women and got aging bachchan to stamp an approval for a price of course !!

>The practice of having a mistress is
>institutionalised in Tamil Nadu in south India. It
>even has a name - Chinna Veedu - meaning small house
>or second home.

all that Bollywood storytelling is ok with me

....but why drag poor Tamil Nadu into the scene and say "...Chinna vIdu is institutionalised in Tamil Nadu.." - as if Tamil Nadu is looked at for a stamp of authentic Indian culture ?? and chinna vIdu is so attested ?

Did'nt the rich and famous Mughals and their ministers and their wassals and their chieftains and 1000s have concubines even though they did NOT live in Tamil Nadu ?

Didn't the rich sultants and badshaas have their harenms though they did NOT know a syllable of Tamil ?

When did the word chinna vIdu come into the TAMIL vocabulary ?

Was it in the last 15 years after director Baghyaraj made it famous ? ....

What is the use of fighting for kannagi's statue in Tamil Nadu if chinna viidu is so institutuonalised ?? - kannagi mind you was a karpuk karasi [queen of virture] who could burn a town with her sight

well....well....well....

Dear editor : If you want to to impose adultry on the India do so please. Do NOT pull in Tamil Nadu into the scene


Regards
thanmAnath thamizan
Vinayak




>
>
>20467
>
>From: VK
>Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:50 am
>Subject: Reality Projected on Screen
>
>
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/08/11/1154803098586.html
>
>Reel tale of love and adultery
>Amrit Dhillon, New
>Delhi, August 12, 2006
>
>IF THE average Indian man stumbled upon his daughter-
>in-law canoodling with a stranger, thoughts of savage
>punishment would spring to mind. The last thing he
>would do is advise her affectionately to leave his son
>if she is unhappy in the marriage.
>
>In Indian society, where wives are enjoined to remain
>blindly devoted to their husbands unto death, such
>advice is unheard of, but that is what screen idol
>Amitabh Bachchan urges his daughter-in-law to do in a
>new Bollywood movie that breaks new ground by tackling
>infidelity.
>
>In many ways, director Karan Johar's Kabhi Alvida Naa
>Kehna ( Never Say Goodbye) is a typical Hindi
>blockbuster - full of music, dancing, and colourful
>spectacle.
>
>But it is the first big-budget, mass market Indian
>movie, boasting the country's biggest stars, to look
>at adultery not just by husbands (which has been
>tackled before), but by wives.
>
>Moreover, the standard happy ending when the long-
>suffering wife invariably takes her erring but now
>remorseful husband back into her affectionate embrace,
>is missing. Indian audiences will be stunned to see
>the two young, glamorous couples end up divorcing each
>other.
>
>In Never Say Goodbye, it is the wife, Shalini, a
>fashion magazine editor played by Rani Mukherjee, who
>leaves her struggling journalist husband (Abhishek
>Bachchan) when she falls in love with an accountant
>(Shah Rukh Khan).
>
>"I wanted to see what happens when people are married
>but then find the love of their lives. What do they
>do?" said Karan Johar, who insists that his aim is not
>to sanction infidelity.
>
>If the film proves to be a hit, the reason will be
>that it captures the zeitgeist. Marriage in urban
>India is tottering. Young, educated, wealthy couples
>no longer share the traditional values that sustained
>the marriages of their parents.
>
>"This is going to be what they call a 'water cooler'
>movie in the US. Everyone is going to be talking about
>it. Here's a woman who doesn't leave her husband
>because he beats her up but simply because she doesn't
>love him," said Mumbai-based film critic Anupam Chopra.
>
>No official statistics on divorce exist, but family
>court counsellors and divorce lawyers in the big
>cities say that divorce rates have risen steeply in
>the past few years.
>
>"The rise in divorce is tremendous. Women are
>economically independent and they know their own
>minds. If they're not happy, they want to get out,"
>says New Delhi divorce lawyer Pradeep Norula.
>
>If Indian marriages are unstable, it is because the
>dynamics have been transformed by the newly assertive,
>confident, working woman. She is no longer prepared to
>"settle" for inequality or a relationship that does
>not give her happiness.
>
>When financier Anil Srivastav, 28, faced his wife in
>Tis Hazari courts in New Delhi recently to end his
>seven-year marriage, there was clarity in his mind
>about the culprit: women's liberation.
>
>His wife, Anjali, 26, was a marketing executive who
>worked late and travelled a lot. Anil says he had no
>problem with her career or independence but he
>expected her to perform "puja" (prayers) and wear a
>sari in front of his parents.
>
>"I don't mind if she roams around in shorts or jeans
>when we're with friends but I wanted her to wear
>traditional clothes in front of my parents.
>
>Whenever I asked her to follow any Indian tradition,
>she'd ask 'Why?' I know society is changing but we
>have to preserve our culture," said Anil. Even more
>surprising is that Anjali's parents have accepted her
>decision to divorce. Until very recently, parents
>refused to sympathise with a daughter who wanted to
>leave her husband unless he beat her up. Any other
>reason - depravity, insanity, impotence - was regarded
>as invalid.
>
>Now, along with changing social values, parents have
>changed too. Divorced children no longer carry the
>same stigma as before, particularly if the daughter
>can support herself.
>
>"My mother supports me. If you're financially
>independent, people respect you. These days, parents
>want their children to be happy and if that means
>leaving a bad marriage, they accept it," said Anjali.
>
>Adultery is nothing new in India. It is, by and
>large, tolerated in a society where the utmost
>priority is to keep the family together.
>
>The practice of having a mistress is
>institutionalised in Tamil Nadu in south India. It
>even has a name - Chinna Veedu - meaning small house
>or second home.
>
>"Indians are like the French over infidelity. We're
>fairly grown up and mature about it, unlike the
>British or Americans. It's not a big deal," says
>columnist Parsa Venktaeshwar Rao. "What will be
>interesting is seeing how Indian audiences - who
>prefer fantasy to reality - react to this film."
>
>

One man's belief is another man's black magic !!

I generally refrain from writing on religion. One, there is generally NO end to religious debate. Two, on an impersonal medium like the net, religious discussion, raises all sorts of passions and leads to fights and is counter productive. Last but not the least, I believe that men, especially Indian men have to concentrate on lot of other issues and so religious debate has no place here. At least here.

However I am concerned at the insensitive legislative process in India.

So as an exception, I am bringing up one discussion on insensitive legislation - which is bound to affect upon MOST RELIGIONS in India today. It affects the Babas as much as it affects the kisthis and it affects Buddhists as much as it affect Jains.

Looks like our law makers are trying to legislate every piece and parcel of our daily lives.
- Marriage which was a smaskra, a sacred religious duty has been legislated. The moment you marry, you fall within the ambit of the Hindu Marriage Act or the Sharia or the Parsi Marriage act .... one of the many marriage laws in this secular land !
- Vidhya - education, was (a) legislated and now (b) commercialised as well...
- The Hindu Religious and endowment Act has helped Govt. nationalise a lot of temples !!
- The Christians had to fight for making divorce simpler ...
The list of legislations that affect or personal freedom goes on and on ...

Also, law makers in India seem to be borrowing more and more from the west, where religion and state have an un canny agreement. In the west there is a state religion and most things within the religion are defined. It started from the times of Henry the VIII.

India has had a long and chequered history of religious plurality. Three of four major religions were born here. There is NO state religion, and even with the majority Hindu religion, NOT much is uniform, for practices vary state to state.

Look at Hindu's core practices and you will see all sorts of variations.

- Brahmins traditionally do NOT eat fish .. well.. eh... unless you are a Bengali Brahmin, and then Fish is auspicious.

- Sapthapathi is an essential part of Hindu marriage ..eh... EXCEPT in Tamil Nadu and Kerala ?

- Women are allowed inside temples ?? really ... NO, NOT IN sabarimala !!

and so on ....

Now, the Maharashtra govt. is trying to pass a Maharashtra Eradication of Black Magic & Evil & Aghori Practices Act (Anti-Superstition Act)!! and is planning to give GREAT powers to OFFICERS who have a great discretion and decide what is Black Magic !!!

To begin with, the language of this ACT is said to be vague & imprecise. What is suppersition ? What is BLACKmagic and what is logic ? Could black magic and superstition include all that is NOT scientifically proven ? What about the karam kAnda of the Vedas ?, what about Chandamama and the children stories ? and what about Muhharram ? .... other religious practices ?

Worse, the bill also empowers the vigilance officer to enter & search any premise, where, he thinks, black magic has occurred.

This is where I see further in sensitivity.

This is just like the ANTI DOWRY legislation (sec 498A of IPC) empowering the police to arrest without trial, empowering arrest of HUSBANDS and their RELATIVES, including AGED PARENTS !!

So, is this bill a terrible mistake that needs to be stopped before it is enacted ??

more below


Discussion on the Maharashtra Eradication of Black Magic & Evil & Aghori Practices Act (Anti-Superstition Act)

Reference: The program India Tonight on CNBC TV18

Participants: Mr. Karan Thapar (anchoring the program), National spokesperson of the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti Dr. Durgesh Shankar Samant, the founder & organizer of the All India Andhashraddha Nirmulan Samiti Mr. Shyam Manav & an Independent Lawyer Mr. Anand Grover.

Introduction: Hello & welcome to India Tonight! I am Karan Thapar. Maharashtra is voiced to pass a bill prohibiting black magic & evil practices; but could it end up banning SaiBaba, Harry Potter & Moharram? During the moment as we ask, does this bill go too far?

Questioning Religious Beliefs? There is no doubt that the Indian people can be superstitious & sometimes can take their beliefs in supernatural powers or the occult to an incredible extreme. But the solution proposed by the Maharashtra Assembly could be worse than the problem itself. This is the Maharashtra Eradication of Black Magic & Evil Practices Bill. To begin with, its language is said to be vague & imprecise. It could include the Vedas, children stories & religious practices. Worse, the bill also empowers the vigilance officer to enter & search any premise, where, he thinks, black magic has occurred. So, is this bill a terrible mistake that needs to be stopped before it is enacted? With me is the National spokesperson of the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti Dr. Durgesh Samant, the founder & organizer of the All India Andhashraddha Nirmulan Samiti Mr. Shyam Manav & an Independent lawyer Mr. Anand Grover. Sadly, the Maharashtra Minister responsible for the bill declines to join.

Mr. Karan Thapar: Mr. Shyam Manav, before we discuss the contents of this Bill & its implications, let me ask you a simple question. Why is this bill necessary?

Mr. Shyam Manav : First of all, I would like to say that I myself was a very superstitious person and had blind faith. I was manifested by a ghost and a mantrik had removed it from me. I was a devotee of many Babas and was afraid of practices such as mantra- tantra etc. While working as a journalist in the Kirloskar press at Pune, I realised that all my beliefs are false. Thereafter in 1982, I founded the Akhil Bharatiya Andhashraddha Nirmulan Samiti. For the past 23 years, I am working for this organization.

Mr. Karan Thapar interrupts and asks Mr. Shyam Manav to answer precisely.

Mr. Karan Thapar: Can you tell me again, why is this bill necessary?

Mr. Shyam Manav: In my experience of 23 years of service in the organization, we came across nearly 2500 persons who were so-called babas, godmen, mantriks and persons who claim that they are possessed by a Goddess and we have exposed all of them. We found that as per the existing law in Maharashtra, under some pretext or the other, these fake babas who cheat people, would escape and move freely in the society again. There is no specific law to hold them.

Opinion - Mr. Karan Thapar: I understand that what you want is a bill that specifically outlaws so called Godmen who exploit the people.

Durgesh Samant, your position? Is that, to the extent this bill seeks to cover & make criminal, acts of black magic or what are called evil practices, you believe that the Indian Penal Code already does that, and therefore the bill is unnecessary! Is that right?

Dr. Durgesh Samant: Yes. Because many provisions & many so-called offences in this bill are covered by Indian Penal Code. Say for example, Under the pretext of expelling ghost, assaulting by tying a person with a rope (319) is hurt, (320) is grievous hurt, (336) is act endangering life & personal safety, etc.

EXPERTS SAY! (The definite positive answer shows that the existing laws are capable & a new Act is not at all necessary. We have no objection with people being punished for committing these crimes. But the present Indian Penal Code has clear provisions for the same. For current provisions, refer IPC Sections 319-326, 299, 302, 508, 117, 497, 417, etc.)

Mr. Karan Thapar (interrupts): So there are a whole range of Penal Code provisions that actually cover what the Bill is trying to do! You are saying that the Bill is unnecessary, all right?

Anand Grover, what do you think is the problem with the legislation in the area of black magic or religious practices or spiritual beliefs? Is that it's all a matter at the end of the day for interpretation & therefore, it is a bit like walking across a minefield; what for one person is superstition, for another is belief & surely the government ought not to be intervening here at all.

Mr. Anand Grover: Well, I think there is a basis of you saying that; but there is also a rational basis to say that certain practices, which are known to be not really working and so called godmen are taking advantage of poor people; they need to be stopped. And there is a cognate or similar Act nationally called the Drug & Magic Remedies Act. Unfortunately, that Act doesn't actually stop the practices, it only addresses advertisements.

Opinion - Mr. Karan Thapar: The problem is that, the Act doesn't actually concern itself with black magic, it doesn't concern itself with religious practices and spiritual belief. When I am talking about something that intrinsic to human faith, should the law be legislating? Give me an answer to that!

Mr. Anand Grover says that, I think that the law can legislate provided we are very clear about what it is legislating. This law, unfortunately, in its definition has related a number of practices & unfortunately because of that it doesn't understand what it is trying to stop. I think the Drug & Magic Remedies Act is good because it understands what it is trying to do & it limits itself. But I think the actual practice of doing jadu-tona or black magic needs to be stopped, if it's irrational. I agree with you that there are certain spiritual practices, religious practices that cannot be stopped.

Mr. Karan Thapar (interrupts): Let's not jump the whole discussion and assume that jadu-tona is always irrational; let's come to that in due course) Let me first put this to Durgesh Samant. Do you believe that in terms of essential definition which are intrinsic to this bill, in fact, the bill is deficient i.e., terms like black magic, aghori, karni, bhanamati, jaran-maran; none of them are defined at all?

Dr. Samant: Many words are not defined clearly in this particular bill i.e., the new bill about what we are discussing; say for mantra-tantra, jaran-maran, so-called miracles, supernatural powers & so forth. In addition to that we, under the Act of Information, sought information from Maharashtra Police which explicitly & clearly says that the present law is sufficient to curb these practices.

Opinion - Mr. Karan Thapar: All right! You are saying first of all, the bill is imprecise, it doesn't define what it is talking about & secondly, the police have confirmed your answer that in fact, the present law is sufficient.

Addressing Mr. Shyam Manav : Does the bill assume that black magic, tantra-mantra, jaran-maran are terms that firstly, everyone understands? & secondly, do you also feel that these terms are understood equally by everyone ?

Mr. Shyam Manav: This bill is difficult to be understood by a layman because it is quite an uncommon kind of a bill. The definitions in Section 2B of this bill states clearly that the meaning of black magic & aghori evil practices are those, which come under the purview of the 12 acts mentioned in the schedule.

Mr. Karan Thapar (interrupts & asserts that what Mr. Shyam Manav is saying is incorrect): The clause 2 of the bill made by you states that 'The bill has the same meaning as assigned under the Drugs & Magic Remedies Act'. The Drugs & Magic Remedies Act does not talk about black magic, it doesn't talk about jaran-maran, tantra mantra, aghori or karni. So in other words, when you say that refer to the Act's definition, it is not helpful, there are no definitions there.

Mr. Shyam Manav: We have thought a lot while preparing this bill & wherever the meaning is not clearly stated, there the reference of the Drugs & Magic Remedies Act is to be considered

Mr. Karan Thapar: But if there are no meanings stated, then which meanings should be considered.

Once again Mr. Shyam Manav says that the meanings are stated there; but according to Mr. Karan Thapar's opinion there are no meanings stated in clause 2B. Thereafter Mr. Shyam Manav says that, while preparing the bill the Supreme Court Judge has also shared his views.

Dr. Samant: Here let me give some concrete examples i.e., in this schedule, Clause no. 8 which says 'to create panic in the minds of public, in general, by way of invoking ghost by mantra' & 'to invoke ghost putting up a false show to make a person free from poisonous infection invoking mantras & diverting him to practice aghori acts'.

Opinion - Mr. Karan Thapar (interrupts): Lets not get lost in definitions because, what you claim in the case is been disputed. Let's take an example & lets see on the basis of that example who can solve this dispute. For instance, do you believe that under the terms of this bill, if it were in force, Saibaba & the act of producing 'vibhuti' would be construed to be promotion, propagation or the practice of black magic?

Dr. Samant: Yes. If Saibaba comes to Mumbai & performs something like this, he will be booked.

Mr. Karan Thapar: Let me bring in Mr. Manav & ask him. (Addressing Mr. Manav) It's been alleged, as an example to prove, that your definitions are misleading. That, if Saibaba came to Bombay, under the terms of this Act, he would be arrested for black magic.

Mr. Shyam Manav: Anyone doing such magic or miracles will be considered under this bill.

Mr. Karan Thapar (asks Mr. Manav to answer to the point): I am talking about Saibaba & the 'vibhuti'.

Mr. Shyam Manav: Saibaba had declared around 2 years ago that he is not going to perform any such miracles. Therefore, there is no meaning in considering a specific name. However, when this Act comes into force, anyone in Maharashtra, performing any act falling under the purview of the 12 acts mentioned in the schedule, will be punishable.

Mr. Karan Thapar: If we assume that Saibaba comes to Bombay and makes 'vibhuti', then will Saibaba also come under this Act?

Mr. Shyam Manav: Yes. Saibaba will also be covered under this Act & the same holds good for anyone performing a similar act.

Mr. Karan Thapar (addressing Mr. Anand Grover): Would you accept that regardless of what individuals may think of Saibaba & about the act of producing 'vibhuti', any bill that seeks to criminalise Saibaba is surely unacceptable?

Mr. Anand Grover: Well, I think that if He wanted to deceive or defraud, which is the intention of this bill, though it is very imprecisely drafted, I think even Saibaba should be punishable. But that is not the point. I think the problem is not that.

Mr. Karan Thapar (interrupts): You added a very important point. You said, 'if He were seen to be defrauding', but suppose He is not? Suppose Saibaba comes & in the eyes of his believers....

Mr. Anand Grover: No, then there is no fraud.

Mr. Karan Thapar: But if it is an act...Yes, go ahead!

Mr. Anand Grover (addressing Mr. Karan Thapar): Can I answer that? I think if people are defrauding & deceiving; in the eyes of His followers, He is actually performing miracles & they believe that He is actually doing something miraculous & He may not be on the face of it defrauding them, I don't think that there is any harm in it. Moment He starts curing diseases, tries to actually come into the field of medical treatment which actually causes harm, then He should be punishable.

Mr. Karan Thapar: You are ending your whole answer on 'the moment He starts practising fraud'. Let's pause a moment there & let me bring in Dr. Durgesh Samant.

(Addressing Dr. Samant) If not for Saibaba, that would in fact be covered, although as Anand Grover calls it that, there is an important position to bear in mind. You believe that in fact, even religious books like the AtharvaVeda, you believe that even religious practices like the Moharram, Ramzan, the practice of lent & fasting during lent, as well as the practice of penance & sufferings like the Christians...all of those must be covered by this bill. Am I right?

Dr. Durgesh Samant: Yes! As there is no definition of tantra in this (Act). There are so many books on Tantrashashtra in Buddhism, in Jainism & in Hinduism too. There are so many books which will all be covered under this (Act). Secondly, recently BBC has given news that Roman...

Mr. Karan Thapar (interrupts): All of tantrik worship as well could be covered under this!

Dr. Durgesh Samant: Everything will be covered!

Let's pause & once again go back to Shyam Manav.

Mr. Karan Thapar: Shyam Manav, the AtharvaVeda consciously & deliberately talks about jadu-tona, mantra-tantra. Would that be covered by your bill? Would the selling & the propagation of AtharvaVeda be covered?

Shyam Manav: According to Section 3 of this Bill, it is punishable. The Bill specifically mentions, 'acts done by a person' which means that, after the bill comes into force, any living person performing such acts is punishable. Therefore, the incidents that have occurred, before the bill comes into force, will not fall under its purview.

Mr. Karan Thapar: If AtharvaVeda as alleged by Durgesh Samant or Moharram & Ramzan are not covered, then what about the practice of Reiki & Pranic Healing?

Mr. Shyam Manav: It is not covered

Mr. Karan Thapar (questions Mr. Manav): How can it not be covered? Because you talk about any one who believes in aura & emanations from healers; that is precisely what Reiki has....

Mr. Shyam Manav: Where is it mentioned?

Mr. Karan Thapar: Section (25-2A)(The proper clause is 11-2A - Editor) of your schedule mentions it & asks Mr. Shyam Manav to read his schedule.

Mr. Karan Thapar (addressing Mr. Anand Grover): It seems to me that the essential problem, even though, people may dispute with individual examples, is that, this bill seeks to tackle & prohibit belief in supernatural powers & miracles. And I put it to you that both of those are intrinsic to religious worship. Therefore, whether the bill intends it or not, implicitly & sometimes explicitly, it trespasses on religious beliefs. That's the problem with the bill! Would you agree?

Mr. Anand Grover: Yes. That's what I was trying to say earlier. Though it is well intentioned, the practices which are sought to be prohibited are so imprecise, it trenches not only on religious practices & spiritual practices but as you pointed out, it is not 25-2A, it is no. 10 & 11 A of the Schedule, which is what you were referring, 'To create an impression that oneself is having supernatural powers or emanations on another person or a holy spirit'. Now this actually specifically made an offence. Whereas under Section 13 of the Act, religious practices which do not cause harm are exempted. There is an intrinsic contradiction in the Act & the problem is that, the Act, according to me, is not workable. The police cannot implement it & it is going to be an abject failure & probably Mr. Manav who is very enthusiastic about it will have a rude shock after he finds out, that very few people are implementing the supporting Act.

Mr. Karan Thapar (compliments Mr. Anand Grover): You have given a very clear wording against the Act. I want to come back & talk very briefly, in the limited time we have, about the procedure for the enforcement. This Act makes a bad situation even worse. See you in a moment after a break.

Welcome back to India Tonight. Let's discuss the proposed Maharashtra Black Magic & Evil Practices Act.

Mr. Karan Thapar: Durgesh Samant, let's now turn to the procedure for enforcement. You believe that the bill, which appoints the vigilance officer who can enter any place at will, if he believes, that the act of black magic has been practiced there. You believe that this is a Draconian Power! Is that right?

Dr. Durgesh Samant: Yes, because the additional thing here is that the vigilance officer can act or is supposed to act not only to a particular crime committed but to prevent it also. So, under suspicion also, he can go on moving around & from a third party complaint. So, anybody sees something & he feels that something is wrong and informs the particular officer, the officer on his own can decide & with his own judgement can do whatever he wants.

Mr. Karan Thapar: So you are saying that, it is not only draconian but it is also intrusion of people's privacy, under the garb of act!

Let me put it back to Anand Grover. This bill gives the vigilance officer the power to 'detect', which means it goes considerably beyond, because it requires him to fare it out, as per the happenings, which are considered to be criminal under this law. Now give us, that the police don't go around detecting further any other form of crime; it only reacts when it's happened. Don't you think that this is going to be particularly intrusive?

Mr. Anand Grover: Yes, on the face of it the way it is drafted, it would allow the so-called vigilance officer to be more intrusive than he should be, under the normal law. But I can tell you very clearly; the police mindset is not going to change because of this law. So despite the fact, that it should be more intrusive according to this law, I don't think the police will act like that.

Mr. Karan Thapar: You can't excuse draconian legislation on the grounds that the police are inefficient & won't enforce it. A draconian Act is a draconian Act, regardless of how the police enforce it!

Mr. Anand Grover: I am not supporting it. I am just professing it. At the same time, as I was going to mention, it is a draconian Act & secondly, more important, despite the label of vigilance officer, who is supposed to be a very intelligent officer to implement this act, what is going to happen is, like in every other law, our regular police officers are going to implement this Act. So, I will tell you the regular police officer, even though he may have draconian powers, will not be able to understand & implement this Act. So I think, this is an Act, which is not implementable.

Mr. Karan Thapar: Let me bring in Mr. Manav because he's actually now loaded the dice and should be all set and have a chance to reply. (Addressing Mr. Manav) I put it to you Mr. Manav. In light of what you heard Mr. Samant say, 'that it is draconian', in the light of what you heard Mr. Grover say, 'that it is liable to be misused, it is liable not even to be fully understood by the vigilance officer', so this Act, in the light of both of those concerned, seems to resemble the pilgrim father laws & the early salient trials that were specifically designed to deal with witchcraft in the seventeenth century in America. You are pushing back India to a position 200 years old!

Mr. Shyam Manav: Sir, first of all, our Constitution has given us freedom of religion & of expressing our religious ideas. Likewise, it has also given the State, a right to frame laws if people are at loss. Secondly, no additional rights have been conferred upon the vigilance officer. The vigilance officer will have the same rights as are conferred upon the police by the Criminal Procedure Act, 1973. The need for a vigilance officer arises because this is a specialised subject and it is essential that its each & every concept is clearly understood and every case relating to this Act is completed and this responsibility is being given to the existing police officers.

Mr. Karan Thapar (interrupts): Recently, to overcome his loss of form, Sachin Tendulkar performed, what is called, the Sarpasanskar at the Kukke Subramanyam temple in Mangalore. Now this, as you know, is a ritual designed to overcome a curse incurred by an ancestor, who killed a snake & did not perform the neutralising ritual. Under your bill, would either Sachin or the priest of the temple be liable for action?

Mr. Shyam Manav: Only the 12 acts mentioned in the schedule are punishable. Excluding them, other spiritual practices, etc. are not included in the schedule.

Mr. Karan Thapar asks Mr. Shyam Manav to answer to the point. Under the terms of your bill, will Sachin performing the Sarpasanskar be considered?

Mr. Shyam Manav: Neither Sachin nor the priest will be considered. No other religious acts are liable to be considered under this schedule.

Mr. Karan Thapar asks Dr. Durgesh Samant: You built your entire case on the belief that, this Act can not only be misused but that it directly infringes upon individual religious worship & faith. You are just been told that you are wrong about the AtharvaVeda, you are been told you are wrong about the example of Sachin Tendulkar, you are wrong about your concerns about Pranic healing & Reiki. Have you misunderstood the bill?

Dr. Durgesh Samant: Not at all. In the particular schedule, what they say, there is one particular fallacy, that they have not defined clearly what are so-called miracles, they have not defined Aghori Acts. In the Clause 8, they brand the offence as Aghori Acts but they have not defined. If Satya Saibaba comes & asks Sachin to perform this particular puja, Satya Saibaba has performed some miracles & he is asking to do some puja & then it becomes a display of miracles plus asking him something &...

Mr. Karan Thapar (interrupts): Let me bring in Anand Grover for the last word & I want to have to ask you to be very brief Mr. Grover. Do you accept, that regardless of the dispute that you heard between Durgesh Samant & Shyam Manav, one contradicting the other; that in fact, it is in the imprecision of the terminology & the fact that important terms are not defined at all, does the danger of this Act lies? As a result of which, the different vigilance officers can interpret it differently & given the power of vigilance officer, that becomes very dangerous. Would you accept that?

Mr. Anand Grover: Yes. I think on the face of it, it is a dangerous bill; because Mr. Manav, I think, should have been very clear about how to define the practices. It is too broad, there are too many vague expressions in the Act & the Schedule should not be a definition of series of 12 acts. It is not precise too.

(Addressing Mr. Anand Grover) : Answer in a word: Should this bill therefore be dropped or should it be passed by the Assembly?

Mr. Anand Grover: No. It should be reconsidered by Mr. Manav & I think it should have proper legal advice.

Conclusion: All Right Gentlemen! I am afraid; we are going to have to leave that particular decision there. It is clearly a bill that affects people's life. It is a one way watch. It is a case where, with the noblest ( ? ? ?) of intentions the Maharashtra Assembly could end up trespassing on our beliefs, on our privacy & our rights. This is a crucial situation that should be very careful watched! Thanks to my guest for joining me. Good Bye! Good Night!

Is it safe take back a wife, who once filed a false 498A and NOW claims to have changed ?

Looks like the thread started by the original poster has come a long way

The question: Can we take back a wife, who once filed a false 498A and NOW claims to have changed ?

my 2 cents

To THE ORIGINAL POSTER :

This (bringing the wife back after she has filed 498A) is a very personal call.

VERY.

This is something NOT many others can make. May be your parents and kin can help. That too may be.

You have to take this call.

All that others can say is to help you ... give you pointers or suggestions... But only you and your family can take the call

The minuses of calling her back (minuses within 498A)
- She is smarter the second time. She Plugs loopholes that were there in the first FALSE complaint and seals it the next time , she makes ANOTHER FALSE 498A complaint :-(
- She is just plain acting and is dangerous from inside. Better face her as an enemy from outside. At least she is NOT in your house !

- I'm keeping DV act outside this discussion because if one were to get into that cess pit there is NO family left

- I am also keeping a foreign divorce and costs of the same outside this discussion

The pluses of calling her back
- If she has really changed and want's to live again, and you give her a chance, she will be really good and understanding wife - for BOTH OF YOU you have crossed the worst and faced your fears.
- This is especially important as we should NOT let our wife be mislead and trapped by some un scrupulous lawyers or greedy people from her family
- We are after all normal human beings, who work for a happy family !!

Decision : Will depend on you (the husband in this case) and to a large extent the trust that is left (or the balance of trust) between the husband and estranged wife

questions a Husband should ask ?

- are you REALLY REALLY worried about an arrest ?

- After all what can they do to you with a 498A as long as the woman is alive ? threaten the husband with arrest ?. Beyond that there is NOTHING more in a 498A case. Like my lawyer tells me the moment, Middle class Indian men are ready to stay "in" for a week, this whole 498A will fall flat

- Even the govt. has reinstated officers who have lost jobs due to false 498A !! (i.e.) charged BUT since acquitted

- look at what Gandhi and Ghokale and Bhagath singh did ? they turned the British prison into a PRIDE
- they courted arrest and made arrest a qualification for a freedom fighter
- the rest as they say... is history

- the bulk of the 498A cases where we (as men ) pay up, are the cases where the men and women cannot face arrest

for e.g.
- I know of a case from TN, a silent member here, who's 70 year old mum was arrested. the ransom - 75 lakhs. Both the boy and mother politely said .."..go jump..". the mother will stay in prison till she is bailed out (took approx 10 days) and now the case is flat !!
- These are vegetarian south india log, who had not fought the kalashnikovs or kurukshethra
- It all boils down to "..can we face an arrest.."
- for ..conviction in cases where there is NO death, is practically NIL, as ex supreme court Justice Varadarajan said once

So, ...please take a calculated decision !

all life is taking chances

Second answer

>>>You know what the problem with Indian men -
>>>Basically TWO
>>>
>>>1. Fear of society. If your wife slapped you,
>>>did you report it to police, NO because you felt
>>>people will laugh at you.
>>>

absolutely !! agree 100% as I am guilty of these fears myself. Experience has helped me change and come out a little, BUT I still SEE MANY WHO ARE SCARED SHITLESS

>>>2. Let some one else initiate action. Indian
>>>men will keep on suffering silently but won't
>>>make noise about it, they will wait some one
>>>else to raise noise for them.
>>>

Sad. Ain't it ?

>>>Till men stay in 16th century, they will
>>>suffer. We need to learn a lot from women,
>>>
>>>(a). Scream in public area so that people know
>>>your sufferings & way you are being harassed.
>>>
>>>(b). Complaint to police - if we do not lodge a
>>>complaint how police will help us. But we will
>>>not complaint because we fear 498a,
>>>
>>>(c). Stand for each other (If there is issue
>>>between man & woman - not a single woman will
>>>have sympathy for man but majority of men will
>>>have sympathy for woman).
>>>


This "...stand up for each other .." is VERY VERY IMPORTANT, and lacking in many places (ok active SIF members are an exception)

for e.g. I recently was trying to ask a victim his lawyer details !! After two mail this victim hasn't even answered !! this question. and to top it all, this chap (the lawyer) is no super duper. I just needed some small clarifications from him (not some rocket science !!)


>
> poster 1 wrote
>Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:23 pm
>Subject: Re: Re: Need Advice
>
>
>Read IPC (available on internet - all Acts are
>available on net) and you will know sections
>under which u can file complaint. Contact a
>police officer and he will guide you.
>
>Police is not all that bad as common man
>thinks. I am not a Police Officer but I have lot
>of regard for police department. We need to
>appreciate conditions under which they work,
>their terms and conditions of service
>(especially slow promotions, less manpower, poor
>pay scales, long working hours, facilities),
>threat from criminals and interference from
>power lobby.
>
>>
>> poster 2 wrote:
>>
>>what section can i put on her for bodily
>>harm?....she once bit me so hard on my back that
>>her teeth marks are still there...
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>poster 1 wrote: Dear Ramdama
>>>
>>>You know what the problem with Indian men -
>>>Basically TWO
>>>
>>>1. Fear of society. If your wife slapped you,
>>>did you report it to police, NO because you felt
>>>people will laugh at you.
>>>
>>>2. Let some one else initiate action. Indian
>>>men will keep on suffering silently but won't
>>>make noise about it, they will wait some one
>>>else to raise noise for them.
>>>
>>>Till men stay in 16th century, they will
>>>suffer. We need to learn a lot from women,
>>>
>>>(a). Scream in public area so that people know
>>>your sufferings & way you are being harassed.
>>>
>>>(b). Complaint to police - if we do not lodge a
>>>complaint how police will help us. But we will
>>>not complaint because we fear 498a,
>>>
>>>(c). Stand for each other (If there is issue
>>>between man & woman - not a single woman will
>>>have sympathy for man but majority of men will
>>>have sympathy for woman).
>>>
>>>>
>>>> poster 2 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>i read your mails guys and it is so
>>>>depressing...my wife used to slap me with full
>>>>force...and when i would hold her hands she
>>>>would scream...so so frustrating...ours girls
>>>>are running to emulate the west and the worst
>>>>parts of their culture...i am lost...dont know
>>>>which way is better and what next step in life
>>>>should be...
>>>>
>>>>sometimes i feel the taliban has figured it
>>>>out...they must have gone through the cycle of
>>>>civilization and realized it is useless...the
>>>>more we understand the world the less i can make
>>>>sense of it...bring the burkhas...i might just
>>>>convert to islam then there is no 498a and no dv
>>>>bill and no harrasment....just talak talak and
>>>>talak...and i say this with utmost respect and
>>>>no sarcasm...
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> poster 3 wrote :
>>>>>
>>>>>poster # I disagree with you based on my personal
>>>>>experience and I agree with Gaurav in my case I
>>>>>had never touched the girl infact not even
>>>>>consumated our marriage giving her the respect a
>>>>>woman rightly deserves. She became controlling
>>>>>and hurling abuses and accusations after she
>>>>>left our house on her own accord 2 days after I
>>>>>left India. I knew right away this was a bug
>>>>>mistake and filed for divorce. She came and
>>>>>begged us and and said sorry to us but we said
>>>>>no. She goes outside the house and starts
>>>>>shouting at us and hurling abuses at us. After 5
>>>>>years of the divorce filing she replies to the
>>>>>complaint the I raped her. Damn these bi*****
>>>>>liers and here a respected person respects a
>>>>>lady and what does he get in return lies from her.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On 8/11/06, V R wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My Best suggestion friends:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Those who are of the feeling that the wife is
>>>>>>going to bring these charges, they should never
>>>>>>accept this wife. But they should never marry
>>>>>>any other girl either. No one can take the
>>>>>>guarantee that the new wife would not do it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Rgds
>>>>>>poster #
>>>>>>

[..............]

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>- The Fighter <.....@> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi Brothers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Need some advice. Here are the case details
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>1. Based on differences from wife, filed for
>>>>>>>>>>>>divorce in Jan _______ in the (______ foreign country).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>2. 498a against me, my parents and my brother
>>>>>>>>>>>>filed in April __________ in India
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>3. Parents got bail from sessions court in Jun
>>>>>>>>>>>>2006. HAven't applied for bail myself as per the
>>>>>>>>>>>>advise of the lawyer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>4. Chargesheeting has not yet happened. Police
>>>>>>>>>>>>investigating the case.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Meanwhile, wife has offered that she will admit
>>>>>>>>>>>>in court that this case was false and will also
>>>>>>>>>>>>give the court the assurance that no future
>>>>>>>>>>>>false cases will be filed provided that I
>>>>>>>>>>>>promise to take back divorce and confirm the
>>>>>>>>>>>>same to the court.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I talked to my lawyer. He says even if she says
>>>>>>>>>>>>that in the court, she can always file a false
>>>>>>>>>>>>case later. But then, the lawyer may just be
>>>>>>>>>>>>trying to make some money by forcing a settlement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I am willing to give my marriage a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>chance provided that I have enough protection
>>>>>>>>>>>>from false cases in future.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Given this, what is the advice of SIF seniors ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Also, if anybody has gotten a FIR quashed (I
>>>>>>>>>>>>presume that it has to be done before
>>>>>>>>>>>>chargesheeting), then pls send me a private
>>>>>>>>>>>>email. I would like to talk to you and take your
>>>>>>>>>>>>advice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks for yr time !
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>-

Where Gods were extolled with their family !!

Something unique about Indian culture was the family. Be it lord or common man, he was identified with a family.

Even Gods were propitiated along with their wife and kin. Sita, Lakmana, Bharatha, Chatrugna, Hanumath SamEtha Ramachandra swami ki jai was the praise. Not just the lord, but his ENTIRE FAMILY. Balram was with Krishna. The GOpis too. Yashoda was praised. Sudhama was part of the story.

This is NOT just religion. Satyavan's story is incomplete without Savithri. So is Raja Harishchanra's.

However

... where Sita, Tara, and Vandothari were revered and considered goddesses, NOT because of caste or creed, but because of THEIR VALUES and DEVOTION TO FAMILY ....

... where Tamil Poet Thiruvalluvar extolled divinity and power of the virtuous woman saying that ..even Rain (Nature) obeyed the virtuous woman (theivam thoZaaL, kozunan thozuthezuvaaL !!) .....

... where Saint Bharath fought for his ancestors, where Saint Paul preached, were muftis and kishti's roamed freely singing praise of BAKTHI and LOVE .....

... divorces are raising by 30% !

This statistics is NOT from me, but from marriage councillors as per the news item below.

The family, the bedrock of the Indian society, is under threat. The seriousness attached to marriage is lost - or almost lost in this land of sages and saints.

In the name of "..changing values..", India is loosing an important portion of its 2500 year old culture.

I agree that change is in evitable. But any society that looses its basic bed rock, lost everything. This is true of the Macedonians, the Romans, the Incas .... to the current day Russians.

Rocket Launching technology takes a few decades to built. Social values a millennium

India is at cross roads.....

As young men and women we need to decide if we allow the divorce and decay to play havoc or do we reign in the so called "..modernism.." to ravage us. Do we need children to live in single parent homes ? Do we need to make drug addicts of them as they suffered during childhood with lopsided lives ? do we need the ills of the west ?

Indians need to decide, for this IS THE HOUR !!!


http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bollywood-gets-serious-tackling-women-and-divorce/2006/08/11/1154803102492.html

Bollywood gets serious, tackling women and divorce

Amrit Dhillon in New Delhi
August 12, 2006

IF THE average Indian man stumbled upon his daughter-in-law canoodling with a stranger, his first thoughts would be of punishment. They certainly would not involve affectionately advising her to leave his son if she was unhappy in the marriage.

In Indian society, where wives must remain blindly devoted to their husbands unto death, such advice is unheard of. But that is what the screen idol Amitabh Bachchan urges his daughter-in-law to do in a Bollywood movie that breaks new ground to tackle infidelity.

In most ways Kabhi Alvida Naa Kehna (Never Say Goodbye), by the director Karan Johar, is a typical Hindi blockbuster - full of music, dancing and colourful spectacle. But it is also the first big-budget, mass-market Indian movie to look at adultery - not just by husbands (which has been tackled before) but by wives.

The standard happy ending - when the long-suffering wife invariably takes her erring husband back - is also missing. Indian audiences will be stunned to see a young, glamorous couple divorcing each other.

In this film it is the wife, Shalini, played by Rani Mukherjee, who leaves her husband, played by Abhishek Bachchan, when she falls in love with an accountant.

But family values in India are changing, and if the film is a success it may be partly because it reflects the state of marriage in a country where young, educated, wealthy couples no longer share the traditional values that sustained the marriages of their parents.

There are no official statistics on divorce, but family court counsellors and divorce lawyers say that divorce rates have risen steeply in the past few years.

"Women are economically independent and they know their own minds," said Pradeep Norula, a New Delhi divorce lawyer. "If they're not happy they want to get out."

Family court counsellors estimate that divorces within the first year of marriage have risen by about 30 per cent since 2000.

When Anil Srivastav, 28, a financier, and his wife Anjali, 26, ended their seven-year-old marriage recently, Mr Srivastav blamed the breakdown on women's liberation.

Ms Srivastav is a marketing executive who works late and travels a lot. Mr Srivastav said he had no problem with her career or independence, but he expected her to perform puja (prayers) and wear a sari in front of his parents.

"I don't mind if she roams around in shorts or jeans when we're with friends but … whenever I asked her to follow any Indian tradition, she'd ask, 'Why?' I know society is changing, but we have to preserve our culture," he said.

Even more surprising, Ms Srivastav's parents accepted her decision to divorce. Until recently, parents refused to sympathise with a daughter who wanted to leave her husband unless he beat her up.

Other social values are also changing, and children of divorced parents no longer carry the same stigma as before, particularly if the daughter can support herself. Adultery is nothing new in India. It is largely tolerated in a society where the utmost priority is to keep the family together.

Do I file for Divorce ??

Do I file for Divorce ??


This is a common question I face. I thought I should post a permanent blog with some of my answers to this question. Here it is Subject to :

1. my idea of *self help* which is very essential :
http://tinyurl.com/pxcfz

2. standard disclaimers as in http://tinyurl.com/947u9

- Let me suggest the following, In addition to the replies by brother V... below


>> Hi All,
>>
>>I am also a likely victim of 498a.
>>

These days I come across 100s if not 1000s of FALSE extortion cases and FALSE dowry cases.
http://www.ibnlive.com/article.php?id=5472&section_id=3
http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=170603
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1455375,curpg-1.cms
http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=178621
etc.are some recent press reports of the same

Courts have condemned this
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050722/asp/nation/story_5020229.asp
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/47102038.cms

The law that was made to protect the woman, seems to be grossly mis-used to extract money from innocent men or to wreck vengeance.

I am saddened to hear such stories. I'm equally saddened to hear your story. I am a member of a group of harassed husbands, most of whom have been falsely charged or harassed by our wife. We and our sympathizers share your sorrow.


>>1) I have already secured an anticipatory bail for
>>myself and my family
>>

Good to learn that you have an anticipatory bail

Does this bail have any conditions ? I hope this bail does NOT have any conditions or time limits. If there are any please post here

The fear of arrest under Dowry laws is the biggest threat men face. Or else the rest of the matter is a pure matrimonial dispute and can be handled as a civil matrimonial dispute...

Once you are able to get the bail , THE OPPOSITE PARTY will be under pressure.

>>
>>2) I am sure that I can't stay with her.
>>

that is a personal decision

Hope you have taken this decision after careful thought

Please consider all aspects of your marriage before coming to this decision

>>
>>Should i go for divorce?
>>

If you are a hindu, and you are a MALE seeking divorce, and your wife has NOT yet sought DIVORCE (she might have filed other criminal cases, but as long as she has NOT sought divorce), then, your divorce case will have to be based on very strong evidence necessitating the divorce

Generally in cases like yours, the reasons for a divorce under the Hindu Marriage Act are :

1[(i) adultery

(ia) cruelty; [pl. NOTE that normal quarrel between husband and wife is NOT sufficient. Cruelty has to be of such a nature that you cannot possible live with your wife or vice versa ]

(ib) desertion (one spouse totally leaving the marriage & matrimonial home)

(ii) conversion to another religion; or

(iii) incurable lunacy, mental disorder etc.

(iv) virulent and incurable form of leprosy [of the other spouse]

(v) venereal disease in a communicable form; [of the other spouse]

(vi) renouncing the world by entering any religious order; [by the other spouse thereby making the marriage impossible to continue]

(vii) disappearance for a period of seven years or more

So it may be pretty premature to file for divorce JUST BECAUSE your wife has filed a 498A

In many cases (where men file for Divorce), women run to the courts and try to get the court's sympathy stating that "..not only did the husband treat the wife cruelty, but also he is trying to divorce her !!..", so I would suggest that you do NOT file for divorce.

Wait.

Read the pages of save Indian Family and slowly learn the issues

>>
>>Will that weaken her case of 498a in any way?
>>

As I explained above, your civil case / petition for a divorce will NOT weaken her case.

It may if any be used as a weapon by her !!

So it is suggested you wait

further you will have to monitor and follow up on the criminal - 498A case filed by her

>>
>>3) How much would be the maintenance I may be
>>required to pay if I seek a divorce.
>>

This is THE catch

If you file for divorce (before she files), and if you DO NOT HAVE ANY clinching reasons as mentioned above, she will try to get maintenance from you - especially if she is un employed

In cases where you cannot show just or sufficient cause NOT to live with her, maintenance could be AS MUCH AS 1 / 5 th of your salary (or if she is also employed upto 1 / 5 th of the difference in salary]

So do NOT file for A divorce and do NOT give her a chance to harass you with further petitions for maintenance

- Divorce is costly - FOR Indian MEN !!, for In India, MEN INVARIABLY pay alimony at the end of a divorce

- In India, if you are hindu, your wife of 4 months may seek alimony for the rest of her life !! Unlike the west there are no graded scale !! we still have a HINDU marriage act, a PARSI law, a CHRISTIAN law and so on ...

- Still our family courts are in the 16 century mode and imagine that MEN have to pay and women just receive. Women lib and all talk about gender equality is FORGOTTEN the moment men are asked to pay. Men, especially Hindus, approaching a troubled relationship have to make clear plans on how and what they would do, SHOULD THEY separate from their wife

>>4) Apart from anticipatory bail, what should i do in
>>order to weaken the 498a case against me.
>>

Try and collect proof

Collect as much proof as possible

The more proof you collect, the weaker her case becomes

are they threatening you about this dowry case. Can you record it ? please note that recorders are available in most cities and are reasonably in expensive when compared to the trouble you have to go thru with these false cases

IF YOU HAVE VERY good proof you can win the FALSE 498A case and that it self can become grounds for you to file cases against her..

>>
>>5) If I go abroad, is there any way my
>>wife(tormentor) can seek my return to India?
>>

If you go abroad, who will appear on your behalf at the criminal court for the 498A case

Please note there are 1000s of people IN THIS VERY group who are NRI !! i.e. they are already abroad and are STILL suffering from this draconian 498A

Going abroad has NOT saved them !!

So why do you think running away from the problem or going aboard will help you ?

Going abroad or not should be purely based on your career and other considerations AND NOT ON this 498A case

If you stay in India and fight this case - it's lot better



Regards
Vinayak
August 9th 2006

>>Regards
>>
>>mkr



>20287
>From: V..............
>Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 1:51 am
>Subject: Re: [SaveIndianFamily] Maintenance
>
>Go abroad and file RCR.
>
>If you are abroad for a livelihood, ur wife can at no
>cost force u to come back. But if u r for leisure, she
>can even refer to Interpol to get u back.
>>
>>..... wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>I am also a likely victim of 498a.
>>
>>1) I have already secured an anticipatory bail for
>>myself and my family
>>
>>2) I am sure that I can't stay with her. Should i go
>>for divorce? Will that weaken her case of 498a in any
>>way?
>>
>>3) How much would be the maintenance I may be
>>required to pay if I seek a divorce.
>>
>>4) Apart from anticipatory bail, what should i do in
>>order to weaken the 498a case against me.
>>
>>5) If I go abroad, is there any way my
>>wife(tormentor) can seek my return to India?
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>.....

Murder for Extramarital Affair Is NOT punishable by death !!

Murder for Extramarital Affair Is NOT punishable by death !!


Murder for Extramarital Affair Is Culpable Homicide: HC

06 August, 2006

In a significant judgement, the Madurai Bench of the Madras High Court ruled that a person, charged with slaying his wife for continued illicit relationship despite several warnings, could not be convicted for murder under section 302 of IPC.

A Division Bench, comprising Mr Justice M Chokkalingam and Mr Justice A Selvam, held that ""considering the circumstances, the act of the accused does not fall under the ambit of murder but will amount only to culpable homicide and as such attracts section 304 part I of IPC.

Accordingly, the Bench modified the conviction and life sentence awarded by the Principal Sessions Judge (PSJ), Dindigul, and commuted it to seven years rigorous imprisonment (RI).

The Bench pointed out that the convict, Babu alias Michl of Dindigul, was forced by the village 'panchayatdars' to live with his wife though the latter had continued to indulge in extramarital relationship and was also heavy with a child on the day of marriage.

The offence was committed due to the provocation of the deceased, who disregarded the warnings of the convict about the persisting illegitimate relationship, it observed.

In the opinion of the Court, it would suffice to award a punishment of seven years RI, which would meet the ends of justice.

(UNI)


I.P.C. 304. Punishment for culpable homicide not amounting to murder

Whoever commits culpable homicide not amounting to murder shall be punished with 104[imprisonment for life], or imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to ten years, and shall also be liable to fine, if the act by which the death is caused is done with the intention of causing death, or of causing such bodily injury as is likely to cause death, or with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to ten years, or with fine, or with both, if the act is done with the knowledge that it is likely to cause death, but without any intention to cause death, or to cause such bodily injury as is likely to cause death

http://www.indlawnews.com/2B1751EF5BB6E20662B58F9ED1C182FA

Why men should be careful of women wanting more "money" !! ??

Traditionally man was the provider and women a protector, collator of family assets. He earned and she maintained the family, supported and brought up children. Both of them thought of the FAMILY AS A WHOLE and supported each other

all that is gone now !!

Men, especially Indians, need to wake up to the following harsh realities

- women live longer than men!. - I'm NOT inventing this statistic. This IS the truth. Statistically Men die early. This is true of most developed countries and is true of most cities in India. Men have greater tensions and stress in life and have greater chances of heart ailments as well

- Neither here, nor there : India is neither a jungle NOR a fully developed country where the judiciary and police are free and fair. We are neither here nor there.

- This puts men in a precarious situation. Should men get into matrimonial litigation, one should have enough time to fight it out in courts. One should have sufficient patience as well. Add to this, the wife friendly dowry laws and their misuse..., you have a lethal cocktail

- Divorce is costly - FOR Indian MEN !!, for In India, MEN INVARIABLY pay alimony at the end of a divorce

- In India, if you are hindu, your wife of 4 months may seek alimony for the rest of her life !! Unlike the west there are no graded scale !! we still have a HINDU marriage act, a PARSI law, a CHRISTIAN law and so on ...

- Still our family courts are in the 16 century mode and imagine that MEN have to pay and women just receive. Women lib and all talk about gender equality is FORGOTTEN the moment men are asked to pay. Men, especially Hindus, approaching a troubled relationship have to make clear plans on how and what they would do, SHOULD THEY separate from their wife

- Indian Men also need to organise themselves better and fight against wife friendly laws.

- If men buy anything in the name of the wife - it is ALMOST GONE as she may claim it

- Gifts and presents bought in the name of the wife are hers. You can swear that you bought it out of your own earnings. NO GOOD. It's hers. Women who complained that never bought them a shit all along will now mysteriously claim that almost all the Jewellery, utensils, furniture, and anything movable at home is their GIFT !!

Regards
Vinayak
09th August 2006

Why women must plan their finances

Udayan Ray and Archana Rai, OutlookMoney

August 08, 2006

"I should be taking more interest in the family's finances, but I don't," says Rita Kapur, 62, a retired academic. Her husband J K Kapur, also a retired academic, managed her finances through the three decades or so of her working life and the two years of retirement.

And this is the story across the country. Most working women say that finance is the last thing on their minds after a gruelling day juggling work and domestic chores. Other say that numbers only confuse them. And, of course, there are those who have been brought up to rely solely on male family members when it comes to managing money.

Which is why, in most families, men make the investment and long-term financial decisions. And this means that more often than not, the family's financial plan overlooks women-specific needs. Says Veer Sardesai, a wealth management expert, "Being proactive in managing money is a must for women, as it fosters personal empowerment. After all, women are the pivot of a family's wealth creation."

While working women substantially supplement the family income, homemakers make invaluable, but non-monetised, contributions, such as a plethora of domestic chores for which the family would have had to otherwise pay. As Vivek Kanwar, head, private banking, ICICI Bank, says: "Whether or not a woman has her own income, she needs to know how her family's money is invested."

While you may agree with Kanwar, you may wonder what "women-specific" financial needs are, and why family finances need to take them into account. Says Kartik Jhaveri, certified financial planner: "Typically, women face four primary risks - financial dependence, being given a lower share of family assets, failure of marriage, or an unequal division of inheritance." We take a look here at the major categories of situations that specifically impact women, and find out how they have a bearing on the family's finances.

Income disruptions

"Given the fact that women experience greater disruption in earnings as they take career breaks to raise children and accommodate family contingencies, they need to have a holistic financial plan from a very early age," says Jhaveri.

Marriage and after. The first disruption in earnings is generally due to relocation after marriage, when the woman leaves her city or country. This, in many cases, forces her to take a break in her career.

Often, she is forced to settle for a lower-paying job (and a lower designation) in the new location. Then, there's the disruption in earning when a child is born. Many women take a break from their careers to tend to their offspring. If they decide to re-enter the workforce after a gap of a few years, they invariably have to compromise on designation and salary.

In some cases, there is another break where women give up work or take up lower-paying part-time or flexi-time jobs to provide care to elders at home. All these disruptions mean that though a woman and a man may have started their careers at the same time, she ends up earning far less when they both retire.

The effect of disruptions. If they've taken a break because of marriage or child-birth, women may be so busy billing and cooing that the thought of re-entering the workforce at a lower level does not bother them.

In the short-term, they may not even notice that they are losing out in financial terms. However, in the long term, such disruptions hurt the family's wealth creation. Also, studies across the globe show that periodic income disruptions make women risk-averse. This means that they invest in lower-risk and fixed-income investment options such as fixed deposits and bonds for fear of losing money due to factors such as stock market fluctuations.

This, in turn, means that the growth in the value of investments doesn't beat inflation. As a result, in the long run, the purchasing power from accumulated wealth is far less than an investment mix that contains growth assets such as stocks, equity mutual funds and real estate - investments that beat inflation.

The outcome of the preference for fixed-income assets is obvious. The woman's savings will not suffice in her old age, and she'll have to depend on the retirement funds of her husband, or other sources.

The reality of divorce. This has got to be the worst of income disruptions for women, especially for homemakers who are solely dependent on their husbands for money. As per the law in India, women still can't hope for more than one-fifth of the husband's pre-tax income as alimony.

Dependant children complicate matters and can stretch finances to breaking point. Therefore, though they may be blissfully happy together, it is important that couples don't lose sight of this unpleasant fact. Ideally, all money matters should be discussed by couples, investments made jointly and their details known to both partners.

Begin early. The ill-effects of income disruptions can be cushioned if women start taking interest in managing their finances early on. That's what Mumbai-based banker Lakshmi Vijayraman, 24, single and an only child, has done. She invested half of her first salary in a six-year RBI bond, ensuring that its maturity would coincide with her father's retirement.

She keeps her monthly expenses below Rs 9,000; with a monthly salary of Rs 20,000, she ensures that she has enough to save and invest for her future. As soon as she receives her pay cheque, she shifts almost half her salary to a joint account with her mother. "This ensures disciplined spending," says Vijayraman.

After having accumulated a sizeable sum in the joint account, she invested Rs 50,000 in mutual funds three months ago. For the past three years, she has been saving Rs 1,000 per month in a recurring deposit that will mature this October. "I began saving in the RD three years ago so that I can have a tidy sum for my wedding," she says.

Vijayraman has also invested in a monthly scheme with a jeweller to get some good deals in jewellery. "Although my father has saved enough, I feel equally responsible to contribute to my wedding," she says. And, of course, as a banker, she knows the importance of tax savings. She invests regularly in equity-linked saving schemes and National Savings Certificates.

Managing the disruptions. For women, among the shorter-term benefits of starting financial planning early is that upon marriage, they can share financial decision making with their husbands. Further, having created a cushion of accumulations, it is easier for them to take decisions involving the work-home balance, whether it is post-marriage or after childbirth. For instance, you need not get back to work for money when you actually want to stay home and bring up the baby. No, it's not easy. But as Rachna Bansal, 31, shows, it can be done.

Bansal, then a Delhi-based corporate trainer, married Vivek Abrol, a Dehradun-based hospitality entrepreneur some 18 months ago, and decided to relocate to Dehradun. This meant that she had to give up her full-time job. But, says Bansal: "The gap from work gave me time to think. I realised that flexi-time work is what suited me, since we were very keen to start a family soon after the marriage."

Bansal joined a training company on a flexi-time basis, but it meant that she had to be content with a lower income. She is now expecting her first child, which will mean one more disruption in her working life. But she has been through it once, and is prepared for it. "It was scary to leave a secure job and take this route. But now it feels all right. The intangibles are worth the scale-back in career," she says.

Being organised pays. Meaningful financial planning can help women in other ways too. Mumbai-based Roopa H. Sadani, a former team leader (HR), JP Morgan Chase, shows how. Sadani, 30, gave up her job almost a year ago when she was expecting her child.

Before that, she and her husband shared the financial burden of the household; his income was used to pay their loan instalments and household expenses, while her income was saved.

Though her husband handles the finances, Sadani keeps herself informed about what's going where, and knows how much she has in tax-saving instruments and how much in liquid cash. When she was working, she had also invested in a post-office monthly income scheme, and the regular interest income from that has been invested in a systematic investment plan of an equity mutual fund.

Sadani says, "We ensured that higher risk investments and repayment of housing loan were made from my husband's income so that in the future, if I decided not to work at all, the obligations could still be met by his income." So, she has been able to effortlessly slip into the role of full-time mother, without the family compromising too much on expenses. However, Sadani hopes to rejoin the workforce once her son is a little older.

Old age blues

"Since women, on an average, live longer than men, a financial plan with a cash flow that would last longer than an average man's life should be created," says Binayak Dutta, chief, sales and distribution, Prudential ICICI Life Insurance. In urban India, women tend to outlive men by at least five years and the financial plan of the family should factor this.

Longer lifespan. Life expectancy has gone up in the past decade, and retirement planning is only now beginning to take root. Women are just beginning to understand the importance of starting retirement planning early and not procrastinating on it. "Saving for a retirement corpus should begin on your first day at work," advises Jhaveri.

An early start is essential because money needs time to grow. A healthy retirement portfolio should include growth investments like stocks, equity mutual funds and real estate. Living longer also means that the woman's retirement fund must provide a regular income and cover her health expenses. This could come from annuities from life insurance companies, particularly those that provide regular income to the surviving spouse.

Well, you may say, I've got pension, so I don't need to save for retirement. Sadly, most women cannot say the same. And even if they do get pension, it is often not enough to maintain their regular standard of living. Adds Kanwar: "Less than half the total number of working women participate in pension plans. So, investing prudently to meet long-term financial goals becomes imperative."

Comfortable retirement. What all this means is that you must plan your family finances in such a way that a comfortable retired life is assured. Take the case of the Kapurs. Rita's monthly pension is meagre. Her husband's larger pension is used to meet household expenses, supplemented by their income from investments in the post-office monthly income scheme and Senior Citizen's Savings Scheme. Apart from this, Kapur has her own PPF account to ensure that future needs are met. What will make Kapurs' retirement fund grow are their investments in stocks, some of them blue chip.

But how will the Kapurs tackle rising healthcare expenses? Rita is entitled to treatment at Central Government Health Scheme centres and reimbursements at CGHS rates. Since this will not suffice, savings will need to supplement them. Clearly, most of this family's bases are covered.

And though Rita does not take an active interest in managing the family's finances, she is reasonably well informed about what money is invested where. That will go a long way in making her sunset years easy.

Challenges for the single woman. How should women who choose to stay single or who are divorced and without kids plan for their retirement? Ask Delhi's author and publisher, Urvashi Butalia, 54, a single woman. "Saving is extremely important for single women," she says.

"Though we might not have the same anxieties such as saving for children's future, the insecurities are far greater. We have to be self-reliant in an emergency or in the sunset years." Financial planning has become more difficult for Butalia since she moved from being an academic to an author-publisher.

Butalia also needs to take care of her mother, who is 80. For her sunset years, she has invested mostly in tax-saving options such as PPF and NSC, besides putting away some money in fixed deposits. She subscribed to some IPOs recently and has also invested in a plot of land. Butalia manages her mother's post-office saving schemes to ensure that there's a regular income from them.

Wealth transfer

Because the woman, statistically, lives longer than the man, she ends up being the supervisor of her husband's estate plan. If she has been totally left out of the financial planning exercise, she will be all at sea.

If the plan calls for the assets to be transferred to the children, the woman should know that she has been left comfortably off and will not have to depend on the kids. As supervisor to the estate plan, she should be able to make sure the transfer of assets happens smoothly. An effective estate plan must be made by the couple and not just by one person. The Kapurs show how a couple can actively manage a joint estate plan.

"We have a diary in which all the details of our investments are listed," says Kapur. This can be a useful ready reckoner in case of any emergency. They are also in the process of making a will.

Their son Deepak, 37, and daughter Jyoti, 35, are the heirs of their assets. The senior Kapurs are making an effort to ensure that the distribution of assets is equitable. An estate plan is also necessary for single women to ensure that their assets go to their loved ones or to a cherished cause.

Sharad Mohan, marketing director, retail banking, Citibank NA, says, "Women tend to be more adept at managing short-term transactions such as balancing the inflows and outflows linked to running a household or money spent on children's needs." That may be true, but it does not mean that women should stay out of long-term planning.

We would all do well to remember the words of money-wise Sophie Tucker, the famous American singer and entertainer who donated most of her wealth to charities in her later life: "From birth to 18, a girl needs good parents. From 18 to 35, she needs good looks. From 35 to 55, a good personality. From 55 on, she needs good cash. I'm saving my money." And so say all of us!

Non amicable divorce ? is that a new name for a false 498A case in the Indian american community ?

Indian Americans Seek Life After Divorce

India Currents, News Feature, Priya Gopalakrishnan, Aug 07, 2006

Jennifer (name changed upon request) is probably like any other South Asian mother in the Silicon Valley. Parent of three children—two teenagers and a 20-something, she works full time as well. In the evening after ferrying the teens to multiple activities, such as tutoring or extra classes, she has barely enough time to cook dinner and complete household chores. She goes to bed by 10:30 p.m. and is up again at 6 the next morning. “Mine is a very long day,” she says.

However, there is one important difference. Divorced in 2003, Jennifer is a single parent with primary custody and financial responsibility of her children as well. Though the kids are supposed to spend vacation time with their father, things are complicated by the fact that both parents do not live close to each other. As the children want to plan for extra classes or summer jobs, they choose to stay with her, and Jennifer’s tight routine is therefore all her own. Anyone’s illness can throw things off schedule and she then has to take time off from work and cope as best as she can.

Comment : Interesting to note that the woman has managed to keep the kids out of the father's reach even during holidays !! Ultimately Indian Americans are also becoming a single parenting lot ! god save the kids :-(

“In the South Asian culture, the concept of family is very central, and any break from the tradition causes stress,” says Dr. Alzak Amlani, a clinical psychologist who has been practicing for the past 18 years in Palo Alto and San Francisco, as he talks about the issue of divorce. “The entire extended family will then withdraw its support to even the children, as they are disapproving and want no part of the situation. In a worst-case scenario, the father completely abandons the children and won’t even visit them unless made mandatory by law. The entire load is then on the single parent.”

Comment : This psychologist has the man to blame !! tut ! tut ! poor thing ! So what about the 1000s of Indian women who have gone back to India, filed false 498As against the husband and also drawn their in laws into criminal cases ?? why no comment, shrink ji ??

Such was the case for Jennifer who separated from her husband in 1999, and has since been the primary custodian of her children. Her family disapproved of the divorce and withdrew their support.

Comment : It might make sense to find out who this so called Jennifer is ? looks like even her own family did NOT accept the divorce. Now Shrink and company are lamenting on the net about "..social rejection.."

Though she was a very active member of the Malayali community, she has since been cut off from her former social circle and the loneliness is just one of many challenges she has to face.

Comment : Not only family - even the friends do NOT seem to accept her moves

“It is harder for South Asians because we tend to stick to our own,” says Amlani about the lack of a supportive environment for Indian divorcees. “And our own may not want to expose their family to a family of divorce.”

“There are a lot of problems being a single parent. Being a divorced woman is very hard in our community; it is very challenging,” says Jennifer. Though she feels that the decision to divorce was right for her, she is not sure how much her children have accepted it.

Comment : Madam is NOT even sure as to how the children have accepted it !! Dear oh .....Dear oh .....Dear . However madam is sure that the divorce was right for her....

“When I asked for a divorce, my son lost the man in his life, and he blames me for that. Looking back I realize how much my boy, who was only 7 at that time, tried to make things work by talking to both me and his father; a boy needs a father,” she says. However, her daughter, who was older at that time and aware of the tension between her parents, was more supportive.

Comment : So here is a daughter who supports the break up !! potential for the next generation 498A female !! good lord...save us !!

To ensure that her children retained some stability in their lives, Jennifer decided to continue living in the same neighborhood so that the children would at least have the same friends at school.

Comment : Most probably she got the house .... oh come on .... be more imaginative

“It takes a village to raise a child; you need friends, relatives and a community,” concurs Amlani. He also adds that a single parent should make use of the resources such as therapy and support groups to lessen their load.

While Jennifer feels that her children have been scarred by their parents’ divorce, she hopes that it has made them stronger.

Comment : That they have been scarred is the TRUTH. Rest you can imagine and conjure

However, she is aware of the fear at the back of her children’s mind. For instance, they saw their father with another woman and are worried about what would happen to them if their mother decided to choose another partner as well. “There is a fear and therefore a need for emotional reassurance that a child requires most at this difficult time,” says Amlani.

Comment : Is this fear at the back of the children's mind or her own mind ? come on... release the good news.. who's the next bakra ?

This responsibility places multiple kinds of pressure on the parent. Apart from the challenges of dealing with the finances and litigation, the single mother or father may also go through anxiety, anger, and depression. This would therefore deplete their emotional resources for parenting.

Even the simplest of tasks can become a challenge as the single parent is faced with new and difficult situations. Amit Rege, who has been separated for 20 months and is now working toward a divorce, has two kids—a boy and a girl, aged 15 and 9. While he does get to spend time with his children, the meetings are too short and not as frequent as he would like.

Comment : So who is limiting the time ? is it the custodial mother ???? come one, why not be specific ?

“Cooking is a challenge,” he admits. “I have had to learn cooking from scratch, and I try to cook something that my children like when they come over. They would initially not eat anything I cooked, but I am getting better now,” he says. “It is also hard for me to find something that both my kids like to do, as because of the age difference they have varying interests.”

Though there is some sadness and anger, he feels that his children have adjusted to some extent. The older one has taken it harder, the younger one is happier; and they mostly don’t talk about it. As for himself, he went through some helpful counseling, and researched books from the library to find out how to talk to his children about the issue.

“I kind of muddle through, doing the best I can,” he says.

He observes that “kids take their cues from adults. I have noticed that even if a young child falls down and gets hurt, if the adult looking after the child is calm, the child will settle down too once the pain has subsided. It is therefore important to gain the strength to not show your troubles in front of the kids, to keep things calm.”

However, says Amlani, the stress of being a single parent can lead to frustration and impatience. Overloaded with responsibilities, the single parent may resent the kids as her own emotional needs are not met. And where there is less parenting available, kids also become more demanding and needy.

Without parental support, children may get angrier; they may feel rejected, and therefore act up; or they could withdraw, preferring to keep to themselves, and eventually get into trouble—such as drugs, drinking, or unsuitable company.

Of course, sometimes the parent is happier, adds Amlani. Freed from the fighting and the tension of the marriage, the parent is at peace and has more energy for the child.

But it is not easy to be strong, as was the case for Maya (name changed upon request). Separated after seven years of marriage, she has two children, now 16 and 15. Throughout her non-amicable divorce, her children were with her and she even went back to school to get a decent-paying job.

Comment : Non amicable divorce ? is that a new name for a false 498A case in the Indian American community ?

“You just live, do what needs to be done; life seems to stand still. I was concentrating on the kids, they were my focus, my priority,” she says about her initial tough times.

Though she now shares joint custody of the children with her ex-husband, Maya initially went back to India with her kids. There she saw them thrive, surrounded by affectionate family members. She however felt that her children needed both parents, regardless of the relationship between them, and decided to return.

“When we came back, they quieted down; I could see the change in them. We didn’t know anybody else who had had a divorce, and they felt they were the only ones in this situation,” she says, of her children.

Her decision to join Wings, a support group for divorced Indians made a positive change in their lives. She was able to meet other divorced parents and in the midst of this supportive environment she saw her kids become kids again.

“I used to feel bad for them; that they don’t deserve to be in this situation,” says Maya. “Initially, it was hard for them, but at the end of the day they were okay.”

However, both she and Jennifer warn that both partners should make every attempt to work things out and choose divorce only as a final option, keeping the interest of the children in mind. While Maya feels that it is better to be at peace alone than live together in animosity, Jennifer warns of the financial struggle for both parents and the probable loss of their children for most fathers.

Jennifer feels that she did the best she could for her children, providing for them, caring for them, and making sure that they could always come to her if there was any problem. However, she is uncertain about their future. “I worry about their lives—if they decide to get married. I hope this (her divorce) does not affect them and that they have happy and stable lives.”

Priya Gopalakrishnan is a freelance writer and editor.

Divorces on rise (In INDIA) as love, accountability fall by wayside

By Lamat R. Hasan Aug 4, 2006, 7:26 GMT

New Delhi, Aug 4 (IANS)

Two-day-old marriages falling apart.

A few hundred couples queuing up at the courts every day - dying to go splitsville. Is this a sign of traditional Indian society fraying at the edges, or, does it indicate progress?

It's no longer the physically battered wife who, with cigarette butts stubbed on her body, wants to break free from the clutches of her cruel husband. Or, the husband who wants to kick his wife, because she could not give him a son.

Today, couples are walking out on each other on the flimsiest of excuses.

But there is a thread that connects these break-ups - a complete lack of accountability.

Consider this: a 22-year-old daughter of a top criminal lawyer in New Delhi decided to call it quits while she was honeymooning in Paris. Reason: her pilot husband was too tired to take her out to a restaurant.

Another young thing, a journalist with a New Delhi newspaper, walked out on her husband a few months after the marriage. Reason: she married to teach her parents a lesson!

It is not just the women who are playing with their lives. Men are giving them close competition, with sometimes even sillier excuses.

Even couples with kids are dumping each other without thinking about the consequences. And in the rush to separate, couples are increasingly opting for divorce through mutual consent.

Sudhir Mishra, a matrimonial lawyer, says: 'There is a complete lack of accountability among couples. Couples are casually dumping each other, sometimes barely weeks after their marriage, and moving on without even bothering to inform each other, without even caring for their children, their families.

'I think double incomes, societal and temperamental differences, long stress hours, their many insecurities and zero tolerance towards each other are responsible for these break-ups. But I think the reasons for going separate ways are mostly attitudinal. Expectation levels are high and there is no safety valve,' Mishra tells IANS.

Shobha De, socialite and author, says: 'Most marriages are breaking up because relationships are stress-driven and couples are not willing to accommodate each other or invest in each other emotionally. It's an entirely individualistic 'me'-driven relationship. It takes two to tango, but tolerance levels are at an all-time low.

'For a marriage to last, you need commitment. Hundred percent commitment. Just like you can't be a little pregnant, you can't run a marriage on a little commitment. There is no middle path,' De told IANS on telephone from Mumbai.

Divorces are happening across the stratum of society.

'A happily married halwai (sweetshop owner) in Haridwar, who married a New Delhi girl, filed for divorce when he discovered his wife had breast cancer,' says Gaurav Nagar, a lawyer here.

A young divorcee, who works with an NGO, explains: 'It is just that when you cease to (rather choose not to!) feel for the other person in the relationship... things slide downhill. As with any other relationships too, the plant called marriage needs to be nurtured with love, care and a little bit of give and take here and there.'

Anu Narula, a senior matrimonial lawyer who practises in the Tis Hazari court, says: 'There are five matrimonial courts in Tis Hazari. On an average, around 30-40 cases are heard every day. Even young lawyers are taking up 30-35 cases per month. Hundreds of cases are filed every month. If one includes the Karkardooma and the Patiala House courts as well, the numbers are alarming. I have seen a definite rise in cases in the past decade.'

According to historian Imtiaz Ahmed, there are three factors that keep a marriage going - personal commitment, social support systems (like the family that steps in to resolve conflicts) and control mechanism, which the spouses exercise.

'Over the years, personal commitment has weakened, more so in self-arranged marriages. Even the traditional support system, with the break-up of the joint family system, is evaporating fast. Couples cannot fall back on anyone to resolve conflicts; hence the rise in the break-ups. Moreover, the middle class, the carriers of the value for life-long marriages, is abandoning this lofty ideal.'

Senior New Delhi lawyer K.T.S. Tulsi has the last word.

'Couples, especially women, are opting for divorce because they are not willing to accept unreasonable behaviour. This is not necessarily a sign of decadence of our society,' Tulsi said. 'I think this a healthy progress of society and should not be a cause for alarm.'

© 2006 Indo-Asian News Service

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/india/article_1186859.php/Divorces_on_rise_as_love_accountability_fall_by_wayside

YUSUFALLI ESMAIL NAGREE Vs. THE STATE OF MAHARASHTRA

YUSUFALLI ESMAIL NAGREE Vs. THE STATE OF MAHARASHTRA
Criminal Appeal No 213 of 1963
1968 AIR 147, 1967 SCR (3) 720

PETITIONER: YUSUFALLI ESMAIL NAGREE

Vs.

RESPONDENT: THE STATE OF MAHARASHTRA

DATE OF JUDGMENT: 19/04/1967

BENCH:
BACHAWAT, R.S.

BENCH:
BACHAWAT, R.S.
HIDAYATULLAH, M.
VAIDYIALINGAM, C.A.

CITATION:
1968 AIR 147 1967 SCR (3) 720
CITATOR INFO :
R 1971 SC1162 (15,20,22)
R 1973 SC 157 (21,26)
RF 1975 SC1788 (20)
R 1986 SC 3 (28,144,146)

ACT:

Indian Evidence Act, 1872 (Act 1 of 1872) ss. 7 and 8
-Tape recording - Value
-Code of Criminal Procedure, 1898 ( Act 5 of 1898) s. 162
-Talk recorded on tape in seclusion with police decoy,
-Police Officer in another room
-If statement made to the police.

Constitution of India, Art. 20(3)
-Police laid trap
-Person makes incriminating statement not knowing the trap
-If protected.

HEADNOTE:

On report of S, that the appellant had offered a bribe to 'him, which S did not accept, the Police laid a trap. S called the appellant at his residence and in the room where they alone were present, the appellant handed over the bribe to S. In the room a microphone of 'a tape recorder was concealed and their conversation recorded. The Police offi-cers and the radio mechanic kept concealed in another room. S was the only eye-witness to the offer of the bribe and the tape was kept in the custody of the police inspector but was not sealed. The appellant was convicted under s. 165A I.P.C., which the High Court upheld.

In appeal, this Court:- HELD: The conviction must be upheld.

The contemporaneous dialogue between the appellant and S formed part of the' res gestae and is relevant and admissible under s. 8 of the Indian Evidence Act. The dialogue is proved by S. The tape record of the dialogue corroborates his testimony. The process of tape recording offers an accurate method of storing and later reproducing sounds. The imprint on the magnetic tape is the direct effect of the relevant sounds. Like a photograph of a relevant, incident, a contemporaneous tape record of a relevant conversation is a relevant fact and is admissible under s. 7 of the Indian Evidence Act. The time and place and accuracy of the recording must be proved by a competent witness and the voices must be properly identified. One of the features of magnetic tape recording is the ability to erase and re-use the recording medium. Because of this facility of erasure and re-use, the evidence, must be received with caution. The court must be satisfied beyond -reasonable doubt that the record has not been tampered with.

Rup Chand v. Mahabir Parshad and Anr. A.I.R. 1956 Punj. 173; Mahindra Nath v. Biswanath Kundu, 67 C.W.N. 191; approved.

S. Pratap Singh v. The State of Punjab, [1964] 4 S.C.R. 733 and R. v. Maqsud Ali, [1965] 2 All E.R. 464; followed.

There was other evidence showing that the tape recording was not tampered with. The fact that the defence did not suggest any tampering lends assurance to the credibility of the other evidence. The courts below rightly held that the tape recorder faithfully recorded and reproduced the actual conversation. The use of the statements of both S and the appellant when the trap was laid, was not barred by s. 162 of the Code of Criminal Procedure. 'The appellant was not making a statement to the sub-inspector of police or to any other police officer. He was not even aware that any police officer was listening to him. He was talking to S. No doubt S was a police decoy assisting the police in their investigation, but the statement of the appellant to S while making another offer of a bribe cannot be regarded as a statement by him to the police. Nor can the words uttered by S be regarded as a statement to the police. S was talking to the appellant. He knew that what he said was being recorded for subsequent use by the police officers. But he was not speaking to any police officer. There was a dialogue in which. S and the appellant took part. Each spoke to the other, but neither made a statement to a police officer. [724 H; 725 D-F]

Ramkishan Mithanlal Sharma v. The State of Bombay, [1955] 1 S.C.R. 903, 922-23; referred to.

The appellant was not right in claiming protection under Art. 20(3) of the Constitution against the use of the statement made by him on the ,-,round that by the active deception of the police, he, was compelled to be a witness against himself The appellant was not compelled to be a witness against himself. He was free to talk or not to talk. His conversation with S was voluntary. There was no element of duress, coercion or. compulsion. His statements were not extracted from him in an oppressive manner or by force or against his wishes. The fact that the, tape recording was done without his knowledge is not of itself an objection to its admissibility in evidence. [726 B-D]

JUDGMENT:

CRIMINAL APPELLATE JURISDICTION : Criminal Appeal No 213 of 1963.

Appeal by special leave from the judgment and order dated' July 2, 3, 1963 of the Bombay High Court in Criminal Appeal, No. 1243 of 1962.

B. M. Mistry, Jatendra Mahajan, and J. B. Dadachanji, for the appellant.

S. G. Patwardhan, R. N. Sachthey, S. P. Nayyar for R. H.-Dhebar, for the respondent.

The Judgment of the Court was delivered by Bachawat, J.

In this appeal, the appellant challenges the legality of his conviction under S. 165-A of the Indian Penal Code. His wife Rukhanbai was the owner of the two house properties in 'F' ward of the Bombay Municipal Corporation.. The buildings were in a ruinous condition and she was served with notices under S. 354 of the Bombay Municipal Corporation Act requiring her to repair and secure them.

The notices were not complied with and prosecutions under S. 471 of the Act were started against her in the Presidency magistrate's court.

The summonses issued to her were served by affixation and on her failure to appear in court a bailable warrant for her arrest was issued.

One Munir Ahmed Shaikh, a notice clerk attached to 'F' ward building department of the Bombay Muni--cipal Corporation, was entrusted with the duty of serving the warrant. The charge against the appellant was that he offered to Shaikh on July 18, 1960, a sum of Rs. 25 and on August 2, 1960, a sum of Rs. 100 as a bribe for not executing the warrant. The appellant started making approaches to Shaikh from July 1, 1960. Shaikh reported the matter to the municipal commissioner who directed N. W. Naik to investigate into the matter. Naik was the administrative, officer of the corporation in charge of investigation of complaints regarding corruption, bribery and other malpractices. Over the telephone Shaikh arranged a meeting with the appellant in the evening of July 18, 1960 at the office of the India Metal Co., of which one A. M. Karachiwala was the proprietor. Naik under the assumed name of C. J. Mehta went with Shaikh to the office of the India Metal ,Co. In the presence of Naik, the appellant offered a bribe of Rs. 25 to Shaikh on July 18, 1960 but Shaikh did not accept the bribe.

On August 2, 1960 the appellant had a telephone talk with Shaikh and fixed an appointment at 'Shaikh's residence in the evening. Shaikh lodged a complaint with the anti-corruption Bureau reporting the offer of a bribe of Rs. 25 on July 18 and the appointment at his residence in the evening_ of August 2. After the complaint was recorded, S. G. S. I. Mahajan obtained the necessary permission from the Chief Presidency magistrate to investigate into the offence. Mahajan decided to lay a trap. ,On a sofa in the outer room of Shaikh's residence he set up a microphone which was connected to a tape recorder in the inner room The microphone was concealed behind books. Mahajan, a radio mechanic and other members of his party remained in the inner room. Shaikh stayed in the outer room. The outer room and the person of Shaikh were searched and no cash was found. At the appointed hour, the appellant came to Shaikh's residence and was received by Shaikh in the Outer room. Shaikh and the appellant had an intimate conversation. The appellant offered :a bribe to Shaikh, produced ten currency notes of Rs. 10 each and gave them to Shaikh. When Shaikh gave the pre-arranged signal "Salim pan lao", Mahajan and other members of his party entered the outer room and found the currency notes in Shaikh's short pocket. The tape recorder was switched on as :Soon as the appellant arrived and was switched off after the signal was given. The conversation between Shaikh and the appellant was recorded in the tape recorder. The tape remained in the custody of Mahajan. From the shorthand notes made after the tape was replayed one Yakub prepared a transcription of the conversation. The accuracy of the transcription is admit-ted. At the trial of the case, the tape recorder was played in court.

The special judge for greater Bombay found the appellant guilty of the offence under S. 165-A of the Indian Penal Code and sentenced him to simple imprisonment for 18 months and a fine of Rs. 500, in default further imprisonment for six months. with the recommendation that he should be treated as class 1 prisoner. Karachiwalla, the proprietor of India Metal Co., at whose office the bribe of Rs. 25 was offered was charged at the trial with aiding and abetting the commission of the offence under S. 165-A, but was acquitted. The appellant preferred an appeal to the High Court. At the commencement of 'the appeal he waived formal notice for enhancement of the sentence. The High Court convicted the appellant under s. 165-A on both counts of the charge separately and sentenced him to rigorous imprisonment for one year on each count, the sentences to run concurrently, and a fine of Rs. 250 or in default rigorous imprisonment for three months on each count. The High Court decline& to recommend class 1 to the appellant. Subject to this modification of the sentence, the appeal to the High Court was dismissed. The appellant has filed this appeal by special leave.

With regard to the incident of July 18, 1960 the High Court was not inclined to accept the evidence of Shaikh without independent corroboration. The High Court found that Shaikh was substantially corroborated by Naik who had played the role of a detective. Mr. Mistry argued that Naik was an accomplice and his evidence should not be accepted without corroboration. It is not right to say that Naik was an accomplice. He did not provoke or participate in any crime. The defence counsel conceded in the High Court that Naik had no animus for giving false evidence. The High Court found Naik to be a reliable witness and worthy of credit and we see no ground for reviewing this conclusion and the concurrent finding of the courts below that the charge of the offer of a bribe by the appellant to Shaikh on July 18, 1960 was proved.

Shaikh was the only eye-witness to the offer of the bribe on August 2, 1960. Mahajan the radio mechanic and other per-sons who kept themselves concealed in the inner room of Shaikh's residence did not witness the offer of the bribe, nor did they hear the conversation between Shaikh and the appellant.

The High Court was not inclined to accept the evidence of Shaikh without corroboration.

But the High Court found that his evidence was sufficiently corroborated by the tape recorder. The appellant handed over Rs 100 to Shaikh on August 2, 1960.

The contemporaneous dialogue between them formed part of the res gestae and is relevant and admissible under S. 8 of the Indian Evidence Act. The dialogue is proved by Shaikh. The tape record of the dialogue corroborates his testimony. The process of. tape, recording offers an accurate method of storing and later reproducing sounds. The imprint on the magnetic tape is the direct effect of the relevant sounds. Like a photograph of a relevant.incident, a contemporaneous tape record of a relevant conversation is a relevant fact and is admissible under s. 7 of the Indian Evidence Act.

In Rup Chand v. Mahabir Parshad and another(1) A.I.R. 1956 Punj. 173., a tape record of a former statement of a witness was admitted in evidence to shake the credit of the witness under s. 155(3) of the Indian Evidence Act. The case was followed in Manindra Nath v. Biswanath Kundu (2) 67 C.W.N. 191.. In S. Pratap Singh v. The State of Punjab (3) [1964] 4 S.C.R. 733., the tape record of a conversation was admitted in evidence, to corroborate the evidence of witnesses who had stated that such a conversation had taken place. In R. v. Maqsud Ali (4) [1965] 2 All E.R. 464. a tape record of a conversation was admitted in evidence, though the only witness who overheard it was not conversant with the language and could not make out what was said. If a statement is relevant, an accurate tape record of the statement is also relevant and admissible. The time and place and accuracy of the recording must be proved by a competent witness and the voices must be properly identified.

One. of the features of magnetic tape recording is the ability to erase and re-use the recording medium.

'Because of this facility of erasure and re-use, the evidence must be received with caution. The court must be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the record has not been tampered with.

The radio mechanic did not hear the conversation but he proved that the tape recorded all the sounds produced in the room where only Shaikh and the appellant were present. The voices of the appellant and Shaikh were properly identified.

The tape was not sealed and was kept in the custody of Mahajan. The absence ,of sealing naturally gives rise to the argument that the recording medium might have been tampered with before it was replayed. However, it was not suggested either in the cross examination of the prosecution witnesses or in the answers under s. 342, Criminal Procedure Code, that any tampering had taken place with the Recording. While admitting the accuracy of material parts of the conversation reproduced by the tape recorder, the appellant in his examination under s. 342 attempted to explain the conversation and the object of his visit and-said that-tie had gone to Shaikh's 'residence for obtaining repayment of a loan of Rs. 100 which he had advanced to Shaikh on July 19, 1960. The High Court rejected the appellant's explanations.

Mr. Mistry was right in saying that the High Court could-not accept the inculpatory ,part and reject the exculpatory part of the appellant's answers under S. 342. But there was other evidence showing that the tape recording 'was not tampered with. The fact that the defence did not suggest any tampering lends assurance to the credibility of the other evidence. The courts below rightly held that the tape recorder faithfully recorded and reproduced the actual conversation.

The appellant had walked into a pre-arranged trap. Mahajan and other police officers had hidden themselves in the inner room. Shaikh knew that the police officers were recording the conversation and was naturally on his guard while talking to the appellant. The appellant was not aware of the presence of the police officers. He was lulled into a sense of security and was off his guard. The offence of the attempt to bribe Shaikh on July 18, 1960 had already been committed and reported to the police and was under investigation on August 2, 1960 when Shaikh and the appellant met and talked. The evidence of the conversation was tendered at the trial of the offence committed on July 18, 1960 and of the connected offence committed on August 2, 1960.

Mr. Mistry argued that in these circumstances, the use of the statements of both Shaikh and the appellant on August 2, 1960, was barred by S. 162 of the Code of Criminal Procedure. We are not impressed with this argument. The appellant was not making a statement to Mahajan or to any other police officer. He was not even aware that any police officer was listening to him. He was 'talking to Shaikh. No doubt Shaikh was a police decoy assisting the police in their investigation, but the statement of the appellant to Shaikh while making another offer of a bribe cannot be regarded as a statement by him to the police. Nor can the words uttered by Shaikh be regarded as a statement to the police. Shaikh was talking to the appellant. He knew that what he said was being recorded for subsequent use by the police officers. But he was not speaking to any police officer. There was a dialogue in which Shaikh and the appellant took part. Each spoke to the other but neither made a statement to a police officer.

The case of Ramkishan Mithanlal Sharma v. The State of Bombay (1) [1955] S.C.R.903,922-23. shows that where identification parades are directed and supervised by police, officers and held in their presence and the panch witnesses take a minor part in the matter, the statements of the identifiers may be regarded as statements to the police officers. In the present case, the police officers set the stage for the drama in which the actors were Shaikh and the appellant. The officers hid themselves in the inner room and took no part in the drama. Neither of them can be regarded as having made a statement to a police officer as contemplated by S. 162.

Counsel claimed protection under Art. 20(3) of the Constitution against the use of the statements made by the appellant on August 2, 1960. He argued that by the active deception of the police, the appellant was compelled to, be a witness against himself. Had the appellant known that the police had arranged a trap, he would not have talked as he did. Compulsion may take many forms. A person accused of an offence may be subject to physical or mental torture. He may be starved or beaten and a confession may be extorted from him. By deceitful means he may be induced to believe that his son is being tortured in an adjoining room and by such inducement he may be compelled to make an incriminating statement. But we cannot say that in this case the appellant was compelled to be a witness against himself. He was free to talk or not to talk. His conversation with Shaikh was voluntary. There was no element of duress, coercion or compulsion. His statements were not extracted from him in an oppressive manner or by force or against his wishes. He cannot claim the protection of Art. 20(3). The fact that the tape recording was done without his knowledge is not of itself an objection to its admissibility in evidence. In saying so, the Court does not lend its approval to the police practice of tapping telephone wires and setting up hidden microphones for the purpose of tape recording.

The High Court rightly convicted the appellant of the offence under s. 165A of the Indian Penal, Code. Counsel pleaded for reduction of the sentence. The appellant is sixty years old. He is suffering from cardiac troubles. He was removed to jail from the hospital in an ambulance on July 29, 1963. He remained in jail until December 12, 1963 when he was released on bail. Having regard to these and other circumstances, we reduce the substantive sentence of imprisonment to the period of imprisonment already undergone by him. With this modification of the sentence, the appeal is dismissed.

Appeal dismissed.

Y.P.

Admissibility of Tape records (Tape records of conversations ) as evidence

Admissibility of Tape records (Tape records of conversations ) as evidence


Questions have been raised here about the admissibility of Tape records (Tape records of conversations ) as evidence, especially in criminal cases.

A few of our members, and to my short memory, brother Gopi, has been asking us about the admissibility of Tapes as evidence. We had also advised new comers the need for evidence. Some of them had resorted to Tapes.

There had been various replies from respected brothers here, ranging from stating that Tapes are accepted if un tampered to some opining that tapes are only corroborative. Added to this was the confusion brought out by Section 8A of the Dowry Prohibition Act.

With due respect to their statements and admitting that the collective knowledge in this groups is quite substantially, I ventured out to look at how Indian courts have considered Tapes as evidence.

So I spent some time the last few days looking at this issue......

Incidentally I stumbled upon this case ZIYAUDDIN BURHANUDDIN BUKHARI Vs. BRIJMOHAN RAMDASS MEHRA & ORS. [[1975 AIR 1778 , 1975 SCR 453 , 1975 SCC (2) 260 ] where the issue has been dealt with quite exhaustively

I'm posting this case to my blogs at

http://tinyurl.com/h296b
http://tinyurl.com/qq7sm
http://bareact.blogspot.com/
etc.

Let me hasten to add that the case referred to above is on some religious passions during the course of an election campaign. Politics as is in our punya bhumi is murky. Suffice to state that we are NOT into active state politics, but into social welfare.

Let me also request brothers & sisters here to concentrate on the bold portion of text therein, which pertains to "..Taped speeches as Evidence ...". I hope the other issues of the case ZIYAUDDIN BURHANUDDIN BUKHARI Vs. BRIJMOHAN RAMDASS MEHRA & ORS.[supra] does NOT distract us, hijack the thread and UNITY of this group / forum


Regards
Vinayak
August 2 2006

ZIYAUDDIN BURHANUDDIN BUKHARI Vs. BRIJMOHAN RAMDASS MEHRA & ORS.

ZIYAUDDIN BURHANUDDIN BUKHARI Vs. BRIJMOHAN RAMDASS MEHRA & ORS.
[1975 AIR 1778 , 1975 SCR 453, 1975 SCC (2) 260 ]



PETITIONER: ZIYAUDDIN BURHANUDDIN BUKHARI

Vs.

RESPONDENT: BRIJMOHAN RAMDASS MEHRA & ORS.

DATE OF JUDGMENT25/04/1975

BENCH:
-----------------
GOSWAMI, P.K.

BENCH:
-----------------
GOSWAMI, P.K.
BEG, M. HAMEEDULLAH
BEG, M. HAMEEDULLAH
ALAGIRISWAMI, A.
UNTWALIA, N.L.
KHANNA, HANS RAJ
BHAGWATI, P.N.

CITATION:
-----------------
1975 AIR 1778 1975 SCR 453
1975 SCC (2) 260
CITATOR INFO :
RF 1976 SC2439 (6,7,9,10)
RF 1977 SC 322 (26)
D 1978 SC 419 (12)
R 1980 SC 31 (8)
D 1986 SC1794 (7)
E&D 1992 SC 504 (31)


ACT:
-----------------

- Representation of the People Act-Section 123(2), (3) & 3 (A)

-Corrupt practice-Appeal on the ground of religion

-Promoting feelings of hatred and enmity between different classes

-Amendment of petition-form of affidavit

-Vagueness of petition

-Evidence Act-Cassettes evidence whether admissible

-Order of costs in favour of the respondent.



HEADNOTE:
-----------------

The appellant a candidate of Muslim League defeated respondent No. 3 Shauket Chagla, the Congress candidate in the Maharashtra State in Assembly Election,.

Respondent No. 1, a voter filed an Election Petition, inter alia, alleging that the appellant appealed to the voters to refrain from voting for respondent No. 2 on the ground of religion and that the appellant promoted feelings of enmity or hatred between different classes of the citizens of India on grounds of religion.

The appellant made the following appeal to the voters in his various election speeches :

(1)Muslim personal law was a matter of religious faith for Muslims and that it extended to the mode of disposing of bodies of the dead. The voters were told that if they voted for Chagla they would have to cremate the bodies of their de-ad instead of burying them because Chagla had cremated the dead body of his sister.

(2) The appellant entreated hi$ audience not to vote for those who stood against their religion.

(3) Chagla was not true to his religion and that the appellant was a true Muslim.

(4) If Muslim personal law may be considered a personal matter by Chagla it was considered to be "the law of God" by Muslims who would not tolerate any attempts to amend it as that would raise a religious question.

(5) If the Congress Government brought any amendments in Muslim religious law the battle would be fought in every street.

(6) Chagla advocated intercommunal or inter-caste marriages and that he wanted a Hindu to be a member of the Haj Committee.

(7) There were references to riots in which only Muslims were alleged to have been killed.

(8) The appellant claimed that he would die for Islam and further said that "God has blessed us that every drop of our blood would give birth to thousands of Bukharis."

(9) "At the moment we are in such a war in which our opponent is such a person who is playing with our religious affairs. He considers us to be a community whose conscience is dead."

(10)"We have not signed any deed of slavery for the Government. When we find that the Government is working against us, our rights are being crushed, our religious affairs are being interfered with, then we will rise openly against it. We would rise like a wall cemented with lead. Then who would bang with this wall, would get his hand broken. No harm would be done to us."

(11)Chagla's wife Nalini was a Hindu and his son was named Ashok. Chagla used to attend the mosque as well as the temple and he should be excluded from Muslim localities.

(12)Chagla was neither a good Hindu nor a true Muslim so that neither God nor Bhagwan was pleased with him.

The High Court allowed the petition and set aside the election of the appellant. The High Court awarded costs of Rs. 12,000 to the first respondent and costs of Rs. 3,000 to the second respondent.

In the present statutory appeal the appellant contended

(1) The affidavit filed by the election petitioner was not in proper form since it does not give the sources of information of the corrupt practices.

(2) The High Court erred in not framing issue on the vagueness of the petition.

(3) The High Court erroneously allowed the amendment of the Election petition.

(4) The High Court ought not to have relied on the cassettes of tape records.

(5) The appellant merely asked the voters to support one who opposed any change in muslim personal law as against another who wanted to change' 'it. If change of personal law is a secular matter opposition to its change could not become an appeal on grounds of religion.

(6) The order of costs passed by the High Court was very excessive.

(7) The appellant did not get a fair trial.


HELD :
-----------------

Our Constitution-makers intended to set up a Secular Democratic Republic. Our political history made it particularly necessary that the basis of religion, race, caste, community, culture, creed and language which can generate powerful emotions depriving people of their powers of rational thought, and action should not be permitted to be exploited lest the imperative conditions for preservation of democratic freedoms are disturbed. Section 123(2), (3) and (3A) were enacted to eliminate from the electoral process appeals to those decisive factors which arouse irrational passions that run counter to the basic tenets of our Constitution. Due respect for the religious belief and practices, race, creed, culture and language of other citizens is one, of the basic postulates of our democratic system. The line has to be drawn by the court between what is permissible and what is prohibited after taking into account the facts and circumstances of each case interpreted in the context in which the statements or acts complained of were/made. The court has to determine the effect of statements made by the candidate upon the minds and feelings of the ordinary average voters of this country. [298A-F] The High Court was right in holding that tape records of the speeches were documents and were admissible in evidence, provided the voice of the speaker was identified, accuracy of the actual recording ascertained-and the relevancy of the subject matter established. [290A-B]

The High Court rightly considered the tape records to be reliable for the following three reasons:

firstly, the tape records have been prepared by an independent authority, the police ;

secondly, transcripts from the tape records were duly prepared very soon after the tape records were made which made the subsequent tampering easy to detect ; and

thirdly, the police had made the tape records as part of its routine duties and not for the purpose of laying any trap to procure evidence. [290G-H, 291A]

The High Court rightly treated the shorthand notes and shorthand transcripts made by those who heard the speeches as corroborative evidence and which could be used by the witness to refresh his memory. [291-F]


The High Court rightly held that the various speeches made by the appellant violated the provisions of section 123(2), (3) and (3A).

We do not consider such speeches have any place in a democratic set up in our Constitution. Our democracy can only survive if those who aspire to become people's representatives and leaders understand the spirit of secular democracy. If such propaganda was permitted it would injure the interests of the members of the, religious minority groups more than those of others. [293 BF, 294 E, G, 295 E, H, 296 B]

The objection that the affidavit was not in proper form is, wholly untenable. The alleged defect is one of lack of particulars which was given up by the appellant in the High Court. [286 A & C]

There is no substance in the objection that the High Court did not frame an issue on the question of vagueness of the petition. The real objection is that the particulars of the speeches made by the appellant were given in great detail in the statements annexed to the petition with the necessary affidavit. The law does not require the whole evidence to be set out in the petition in the form of particulars. [286 CDE]

The trial court by allowing the amendment merely removed the vagueness from the petition by confining the allegation of corrupt practice against the appellant himself. [286 G-H] Various allegations have been made of unfairness against the trial Judge. There is no substance in those allegations. The nature of these allegations discloses an unreasonable attitude of the appellant's. counsel, which was also exhi-bited during the course of the trial. [287-F]

The order of costs appears to err on the side 'of severity. The order of costs in favour of respondent No. 2 was set aside since the petition was filed by respondent No. 1. The costs awarded in favour of respondent No. 1 was red-,iced from Rs. 12,000 to Rs. 6,000. [298 E, FG]



JUDGMENT:
-----------------

CIVIL APPELLATE JURISDICTION : Civil Appeal No. 134 of 1973.

From the Judgment and order dated the 27th/28th November, 1972 of the Bombay High Court in Election Petition No. 4 of 1972.

K.K. Singhvi, R. K. Garg, V. J. Francis and S. C. Agarwala, for the appellant.

M.C., Bhandare, P. H. Parekh, and S. Bhandare, for respondent No. 1.

The Judgment of the Court was delivered by BEG, J.-

This appeal under section 116A of the Representation of the People Act, 1951 (hereinafter referred to as 'the Act') is directed against the Judgment and order of the High Court of Bombay setting aside the election of the appellant to the Maharashtra State Assembly from Kumbharwada constituency held on 9-8-1972 on a voter's ,election petition.

The voter alleged that the appellant, in the course of his election, had committed corrupt practices defined in Section 123, sub. S. (2) and (3) and (3A) of the Act.

The gist of the charges against the appellant Ziyauddin Burhanuddin Bukhari (hereinafter referred to as `Bakhari'), a Muslim League candidate, was, that, he had made speeches in the course of his election campaign calculated to induce a belief in the voters that they will be objects of divine displeasure or spiritual censure if they voted for Shaukat Currimbhoy Chagla (hereinafter referred to as 'Chagla'), a Congress Party candidate, who was impleaded as the 2nd respondent that, in the above mentioned speeches, the appellant had called upon the electors to vote for him and not for Chagla on the ground that he alone stood for all that was Muslim whereas Chagla represented all that was against Muslim religion and belief so that Chagla could not be a true Muslim at all, the object of such appeals being to further the chances of election of Bukhari and, to prejudicially effect the prospects of the election of Chagla ; that, the appellant, Bukhari, had attempted to promote feelings of enmity and hatred between Muslims and Hindus on grounds of religion and community. Particulars of the speeches delivered at sixteen meetings and what was said there by Bukhari were furnished with the election petition.

The alleged corrupt practices are defined in the following provisions of Section 123 :

"(2) Undue influence, that is to say, any direct or indirect interference or attempt to interfere on the part of the candidate or his agent, or of any other person with the consent of the candidate or his election agent, with the free exercise of any electoral right Provided that-

(a) without prejudice to' the generality of the provisions of this clause any such person as is referred to therein who-

(i) threatens any candidate or any elector, or any person in whom a candidate or an elector is interested, with injury of any kind including social ostracism and excommunication or expulsion from any caste or community; or

(ii)induces or attempts to induce a candidate or an elector to believe that he, or any person in whom he is interested, will became or will be rendered an object of divine displeasure or spiritual censure, shall be deemed to interfere with the free exercise of the electoral right of such candidate or elector within the meaning of this clause;

(b) a declaration of public policy, or a promise of public action, or the mere exercise of a legal right without intent to interfere with an electoral right, shall not be deemed to be interference within the meaning of this clause.

(3) The appeal by a candidate or his agent or by any other person with the consent of a candidate or his election agent to vote or refrain from voting for any person on the ground of his religion, race, caste, community or language or the use of, or appeal to religious symbols or the use of, or appeal to, national symbols, such as the national flag or the national emblem, for the furtherance of the prospects of the election of that candidate or for prejudicially affecting the election of any candidate.

(3A) The promotion of, or attempt to promote feelings of enmity or hatred between different classes of the citizens of India on grounds of religion, race, caste, community. or language, by a candidate or his agent or any other person with the consent of a candidate or his election agent for the furtherance of the prospects of the, election of that candidate or for prejudicially affecting the election of any candidate."

Before considering whether the allegations made in the petition are substantiated, and, if so, whether any corrupt practice, as defined above was committed, beyond reasonable doubt, by the appellant, we will deal with certain technical objections placed before us at the outset by learned Counsel for the appellant.

It is urged that allegations of corrupt practices, falling under Section 123(3) and 123(3A), are not supported by the affidavit required by the proviso to Section 83(1) of the Act. Section 83 of the Act enacts :

"83. Contents of petition-(1) An election petition-

(a) shall contain a concise statement of the material facts' on which the petitioner relies;

(b) shall set forth full particulars of any corrupt practice that the petitioner alleges, including as full a statement as possible of the names of the parties alleged to have committed such corrupt practice and the date and place of the commission of each such practice; and

(c) shall be signed by the petitioner and verified in the manner laid down in the Code of Civil Procedure, 1908 (5 of 1908) for the verification of pleadings Provided that where the petitioner alleges any corrupt practice, the petition shall also be accompanied by an affidavit in the prescribed form in support of the allegation of such corrupt practice and the particulars thereof.

(2) Any schedule or annexure to the petition shall also be signed by the petitioner and verified in the same manner as the petition".

It was submitted that Section 80 of the Act amounts to a prohibition against calling in question any election, "except by an election petition presented in accordance with the provisions of this part" (i. e. Chapter II which contains Section 83). Apart from the fact that the High Court dealing with this question had, in our opinion, rightly recorded the finding that the issue No. 2, framed on this objection, was specifically given up in its entirety by the learned Counsel for the appellant, so that he could not wriggle out of it by a vague reservation of some right to urge that the affidavit filed was not in proper form, we were not shown any defect of form at all in the affidavit filed. All that was urged is that the relevant affidavit does not give the sources of information so far as corrupt practices. under section 123 (3) and 123 (3A) are concerned.

As was pointed out by this Court in Hardwari Lal v. Kanwal Singh(1) (1)[1972] (2) SCR 742. this is not a defect of the required form but may, in suitable cases, form the subject matter of an objection based on Section 86 and Section 123 (7) of the Act relating to supply of material particulars. It was indicated by this Court in Prabhu Narayan v. A. K. Srivastav'a(2), (2)C.A. No. 1174 of 1973-delivered on 14-2-75. that a petition can only be dismissed for a substantial defect.

In the case before us, as there is no defect at all in the form of the affidavit, and the alleged defect of want of particulars, set up in paragraph 2 of the written statement on which issue No. 2 was framed, must be deemed to have been given up on behalf of the appellant, we cannot now entertain in this Court an objection based on alleged want of particulars, particularly as nothing material seems to have been wanting. We also think there is no substance in the appellant's objection that the Trial Court had not framed an issue on an alleged vagueness of the petition which is another way of saying that it was wanting in particulars.

The particulars of the speeches made by the appellant were given in great detail in the statements annexed to the petition with the necessary affidavit. We can presume that, if such an objection on the ground of insufficient parti-culars is actually given up by a party so that an issue actually framed on it is not tried, the party could have suffered no disadvantage from alleged want of further details which are really matters of evidence. The law does not require the whole evidence to be set out with the petition in the form of particulars.

Still 'another objection was that the Trial Court had eroneously allowed an amendment of the election petition by an order dated 29-9-1972. Reliance was placed upon this Court's decision in Manubhai Nandlal Anersey v. Popatlal Mainilal Joshi & Ors.(3) (3)[1969] (3) SCR 217. and Samant N. Balakrishna etc. v. George Fernandez & Ors. etc.(4),(4) [1969] (3) SCR 603. to contend that the amendment asked for should not have been allowed. We have examined the application for amendments of the petition sought by the petitioner and allowed by the Court. We think that the amendments really removed vagueness from the petition by confining the allegations of corrupt practice to what of corrupt practice to what the appellant Bukhari himself had said in his speeches. Attributions of those very statements to his agents, in the alternative, which introduced some ambiguity, were deleted. An other amendment sought was the insertion of names of persons said to have made certain other speeches. The High Court had allowed the amendments on the ground that they did not amount to any allegation of a fresh corrupt practice. The question whether the speeches of certain persons other than the appellant were rightly permitted to become the subject matter of consideration by the amendment has lost all importance as the appellant has been held guilty of corrupt practices solely for speeches made by himself and we propose to deal with those only. We, therefore, find no force in the objections to the order allowing amendment of the election petition, which only clarified the petitioner's case.

Learned Counsel for the appellant invited out attention especially to ground `H' of the grounds of appeal. This is the most prolix of all the grounds of appeal the number of which not only exhausts the whole alphabet 'A' to 'Z' but ground numbered 'Z' is divided into , subgrounds 'Zl' to 'Z.15', and each of these sub-grounds is further split up into a number of minor grounds. Ground 'H' itself is split up into 22 parts which cover 5 printed pages of our paper book. Ground 'H' thus consists of a long statement of the appellant's grievances about multifarious matters covering the whole course of trial of the case, such as a permission given by the Court to recall a police Sub-Inspector for further examination, permission accorded by the Court to the respondent's Counsel for getting transcripts of the appellant's tape recorded speeches made under the supervision of a Court officer, permission granted to the Solicitors of Chagla to obtain copies of documents filed, the observations recorded by the learned Judge about the demeanour of witnesses and other similar matters. No illegality whatsoever is even alleged in most of these purported grounds of objection. If these grounds indicate a carpingly unreasonable attitude of the appellants Counsel during the course of the trial in the High Court or attempts to make mountains out of molehills, they may afford some light on why the rather unusual order of heavy costs was passed by the learned Judge with which we shall deal separately at the end of this Judgment we are, however, unable to find, from material on record, that the conduct of the trial by the learned trial Judge was unfair in any respect. Moreover, we think that the only really material question before the Court for decision, on which we have ourselves reexamined the whole evidence on record, were : Did the appellant's speeches contain what was said to be tape-recorded and also sought to be proved by oral evidence supported by the notes of those who are alleged to have heard these speeches themselves ? If this was so, was their effect upon the ordinary average voters of this country such as to come within the mischief provided for by any of the three heads of provisions of Sec. 123 of the Act set out above ? These are questions capable of determination objectively irrespective of the subjective inclinations or opinions of the Judge deciding such issues although we cannot, and should not even try to, escape the consequences, upon any case before us, of our conclusions about the purposes and meanings of the relevant provisions of Section 123 of the Act, set out above, reached by applying relevant rules of interpretation of such provisions. We propose to indicate, at this stage, what mischief the provisions were designed to suppress because that seems to us to. be the most illuminating and certain way of correctly construing these statutory provisions. We cannot do so without adverting to the historical, political, and Constitutional background of our democratic set up, such provisions are necessary in our opinion, to sustain the spirit or climate in which the electoral machinery of this set up could work. Our Constitution-makers certainly intended to set up a Secular Democratic Republic the binding spirit of which is summed up by the objectives set forth in the preamble to the Constitution. No democratic political and social order, in which the conditions of freedom and their progressive expansion for all make some regulation of all activities imperative, could endure without an agreement on the basic essentials which could unite and hold citizens together despite all the differences of religion, race, caste, community, culture, creed and language. Our political history made it particularly necessary that these differences, which can generate powerful emotions, depriving people of their powers of rational thought and action, should not be permitted to be exploited lest the imperative conditions for the preservation of democratic freedoms are disturbed.

It seems to us that Section 123, sub s. (2), (3) and (3A) were en acted so as to eliminate, from the electoral process, appeals to those divisive factors which arouse irrational passions that run counter to the basic tenets of our Constitution, and, indeed, of any civilised political and social order. Due respect for the religious beliefs and practices, race, creed, culture and language of other citi-zens is one of the basic postulates of our democratic system. Under the guise of protecting your own religion, culture or creed you cannot embark on personal attacks on those of others or whip up low hard instincts and animosities or irrational fears between groups to secure electoral victories. The line has to be drawn by the Courts, between what is permissible and what is prohibited, after taking into account the facts and circumstances of each case interpreted in the context in which the statements or acts complained of were made. Section 123 (2) gives the "undue influence" which could be exercised by a candidate or his agent during an election a much wider connotation than this expression has under the Indian Contract Act.

"Undue influence", as an election offence under the English law is explained as follows in Halsbury's Laws of England, Third Edition, Vol. 14, p. 223-224 (para 387)-

"A person is also guilty of undue influence, if he, directly or indirectly by himself or by any other person on his behalf, makes use of or threatens to make use of any force, violence or restraint, or inflicts, or threatens to inflict, by himself or by any other person, any temporal or spiritual injury, damage, harm or loss upon or against any person in order to induce or compel that that person to vote or refrain from voting or on account of that person having voted or refrained from voting.

A person is also guilty of undue influence if, by abduction, duress or any fraudulent device or contrivance, he impedes or prevents the free exercise of the franchise of an elector or proxy for an elector, or thereby compels, induces or prevails upon an elector or proxy for an elector either to vote or to refrain from voting".

It will be seen that the English law on the subject has the same object as the relevant provisions of Section 123 of our Act. But, the provisions Section 123 (2), (3) and (3A) seems wider in scope and also contain specific mention of what may be construed as "undue influence" viewed in the background of our political history and the special conditions which have prevailed in this country. We have to determine the effect of statements proved to have been made by a candidate, or, on his behalf and with his consent, during his election, upon the minds and feelings of the ordinary average voters of this country in every case of alleged corrupt practice of undue influence by making statements. We will therefore, proceed to consider the particular facts of the case before us. We have already mentioned above that the offending statements were alleged to have been made by the appellant at sixteen election meetings addressed at various places between 12-2-1972 and 6-3-1973. Out of these, the petitioner's counsel had given up, in the Trial Court, reliance on speeches At four meetings some of which were held at places outside the appellant's constituency.

The High Court held that the contents of speeches alleged to have been made on 1-3-1972 at Erskine Road and on 3-3-1972 at Ismail Curtay Road and on 4-3-1972 at Nizam Street by the appellant were not duly proved.

The High Court did not find that the statements made by the appellant in the course of the speeches on 12-2-1972 at Kachi Memon Jamat Khana and on 23-2-1972 and 28-2-1972 at Chima Butcher Street had trans-gressed the limits of propriety set by Section 123(2) and (3) and (3A) of the Act. But, it found that the appellant had violated the provisions of either Section 123(2) or 123(3) or 123(3A) of the Act by statements made in the course of the remaining six speeches proved to have been made by the appellant.

The evidence relating to the appellant's speeches, discussed fully by the High Court, consisted of :

1. Cassettes or tape records of the appellant's speeches.

2. Transcripts of tape recorded speeches prepared shortly after tape-recording them.

3. Full shorthand records of speeches of the appellant by those who heard them at meetings.

4. Notes and records containing summaries of the appellant's speeches made by persons attending meetings.

5. Statements of witnesses present at the meetings who had actually heard what was said by the appellant.

There could be and was no objection, raised to the admissibility of the last mentioned type of evidence. But questions relating to the admissibility of the first four types of evidence, mentioned above, were taken and may be conveniently dealt with here.[/b]

[b]We think that the High Court was quite right in holding that the tape records of speeches were "documents", as defined by Section 3 of the Evidence Act, which stood on no different footing than photographs, and that they were admissible in evidence on satisfying the following conditions

a) The voice of the person alleged to be speaking must be duly identified by the maker of the record or by others who knew it.

(b)Accuracy of what was actually recorded had to be proved by the maker of the record and satisfactory evidence, direct or circumstantial, had to be there so as to rule out possibilities of tampering with the record.

(c)The subject matter recorded had to be shown to be relevant according to rules of relevancy found in the Evidence Act.

These requirements were deduced by the High Court from R. V. Maqsud Ali (1)(1) [1965)(2) All.E.R.464.

The High Court had also relied on Yusufalli Esmail Nagree v. State of Maharashtra(2) (2)1968 (Vol.70) Bombay Law Reporter 76 @,78., to hold that a contemporaneous tape record of a relevant conversation or speech would be part res gestae.

In this case, Court, while laying down requirements of admissibility of tape records as evidence, also pointed out that the case with which the recording on a tape could be erased by subsequent recording, so that insertion could be superimposed, made it necessary to receive such evidence with caution, and it said that the Court should be satisfied, beyond reasonable doubt, that the record had not been tampered with

The High Court also referred to N. Sri Roma Reddy and Ors. v. V. V. Girl,(3) (3) [1971] (1) SCR 399. for the proposition that, like any document, the tape record itself was "primary and direct evidence admissible of what has been said and picked up by the receiver".

In other words, its use was not confined to purposes of corroboration and contradiction only, but, when duly proved by satisfactory evidence of what was found recorded and of absence of tampering, it could, subject to the provisions of the Evidence Act, be used as substantiative evidence. Thus, when it was disputed or in issue whether a person's speech, on a particular occasion, contained a particular statement there could be no more direct or better evidence of it than its tape record, assuming its authenticity to be duly established.

In our opinion the High Court bad rightly relied upon the tape recorded reproductions of the appellant's speeches. It had given three grounds for considering the tape records to be reliable and authentic:

firstly, the tape records had been prepared and preserved safely by an independent authority, the police, and not by a party to the case,

second, the transcripts from the tape records, shown to have been duly prepared under independent supervision and control, very soon afterwards, made subsequent tempering with the cassettes easy to detect;

and, thirdly, the police had made the tape records as parts of its routine duties in relation to election speeches and not for the purpose of laying any trap to procure evidence.[/b]

We may add a fourth reason. This is that, after, going through the deposition of Bukhari in Court, we find that, although he was identified by police officers as the person who was speaking when the relevant tape records were made he did not, at any stage, dispute that the tape recorded voice was his. He only denied having made some of the statements found recorded after the tape records had been played in Courtin his presence. In fact, he admitted that he knew that "the cassetteswere recorded by police officers' who gave evidence" in Court. If the indirect implication of his dubious statement, in denying some of the statements found in the speeches without denying that the voice making these statements was his', could be that some portions had been interpolated, the police officers should have been cross-examined about it. Nevertheless, the appellant admitted, under cross-examination, that he had given no instructions to his Counsel to cross-examine these officers on this matter. No suggestion was put to the police officers concerned indicating that there had been any interpolation in the records the making of which was proved beyond all reasonable doubt by evidence which bad not been shaken.

As regards the shorthand transcripts of the tape records, the evidence of their makers is there, it is certainly corroborative inasmuch as it only goes to confirm what the tape records contained. The tape records were the primary evidence of what was recorded. The transcripts could be used to show what the transcriber had found recorded there at the time of the transcription. This operated as a check against tampering. They had been rightly used by the High Court only as corroborative evidence.

As regards the shorthand notes and full short-hand transcripts made by those who heard the speeches, the High Court had treated these also as corroborative evidence which could be used by a witness to refresh his memory as laid down in Section 159 of the Evidence Act. It held that their contents could be brought on record by direct oral evidence in the manner prescribed by Section 160 of the Evidence Act, a course the propriety of which has the support of decisions in this Court in Laxminarayan and Anr v. The Returning Officer and Ors.(1)(1)[1974] 3 S.C.C-. 425, and in Kanti Prasad Jayshankar Yagnik v. Purshottamdas Ranchhoddas Patel and OrS.,(2) (2) [1969] 3 SCR 400..

We find no errors in the views adopted by the High Court on these questions.

It was suggested that the tape recording, the making of transcripts, the making of shorthand notes by the police had taken place at the instance of a Journalist, Yunus Rehman Ansari, who appeared as a witness for the petitioner in the case. He had frankly stated in his evidence in Court :

"During the elections I was looking after the interest of the second respondent. I did feel disappointed when the second respondent lost the election. Every worker of the candidate feels disappointed if the candidate loses".

After having been taken through the evidence, in the light of the submissions made by the learned Counsel for the appellant, we are unable to hold that there must have been a conspiracy between the Police Officers and Yunus Rehman Ansari to procure evidence for declaring the election of Bukhari void. Ansari, although not a disinterested witness, had stood the test,of cross-examination well and could not be disbelieved merely because he was a worker of Chagla.

His evidence is corroborated by the duly proved contents of tape recorded speeches, and, indeed, by some of the admissions of Bukhari himself showing, inter-alia, that he considered any one who advocated reform of Muslim personal law to be a person unfit to get the support of "any Muslim".

He said :

"It is true that Muslim personal law is apart of our religion (Wit. gives this answer after first attempting to evade giving a direct answer). It would follow that whoever attempted to change the Muslim personal law would be attempting to affect the Muslim, religion. It is true that whoever attempted to do so would not be entitled to the support of a true Muslim or of any Muslim. I conveyed this repeatedly in my speeches to my electorate".

We will now take up the contents of each of the six offending speeches, which, for the reasons indicated above, were rightly held to have been proved beyond reasonable doubt to have been made by the appellant.

The first of the speeches found to be objectionable was delivered by the appellant on 27-2-1972, at Masjid Street, within his own constituency. It is true that the con-tents of this speech are proved only by the evidence of Ansari corroborated by the notes prepared by Ansari himself. But, as these correspond with contents of other speeches examined by us, there seems no reason to disbelieve Ansari when he says that the appellant told the audience that Muslim personal law was a matter of religious faith for Muslims and that it extended to the mode of disposing off bodies of the dead. The appellant went on to tell the listeners that, if they voted for Chagla, they would have to cremate the bodies of their dead instead of burying them because Chagla had cremated the dead body of his sister. The appellant also attacked Chagla's religion by stating that everyone had to observe his religion wholeheartedly and not like one who was (to put it in the equivalent English idiom) "neither fish nor fowl". The appellant entreated his audience not to vote for those who stood against their religion. The clear implication of his words was that Chagla was not true to his religion whereas the appellant was, and, therefore, the voters should prefer Bukhari. His absolutely unambiguous object was to persuade the audience not to vote for Chagla but to vote for Bukhari on the ground that Bukhari was a true Muslim whereas Chagla was not.

The High Court had referred to Kultar Singh v. Mukhtiar Singh(1) (1) [1964] 7 S.C.R. 790., and said that a candidate appealing to voters in the name of his religion could be guilty of a corrupt practice struck by Section 123(3) of the Act if lie accused a rival candidate, though of the same religious denomination, to be a renegade or a heretic. The appellant had made a direct attack of a personal character upon the competence of Chagla to represent Muslims because Chagla was not, according to Bukhari, a Muslim of the kind who could represent Muslims. Nothing could be a clearer denunciation of a rival on the ground of religion. In our opinion, the High Court had rightly held such accusations to be contravention of Section 123(3) of the Act.

The second speech found to contain objectionable matter was proved to have been delivered by the appellant on 29-2-1972 at Hussainibagh, a place said to be so situated that, though it lies outside the Kumbharwada constituency, a meeting there would be attended largely by persons residing within Kumbharwada constituency. Its contents were proved by a police Stenographer, Sheikh, who had made a full short-hand record of it which was translated. In this speech, the,appellant was shown to have stated that, although Muslim personal law may be considered a personal matter by Chagla, it was considered to be "the law of God" by Muslims who would not tolerate any attempts to amend it as that would raise a religious question. In the course of this speech, the appellant is reported to have said that, if the Congress Government brought in "amendments in our religious law", the "battle would be fought in every street" as "the question of religion has arisen". The appellant had threatened the ruling Congress party with open rebellion if attempts were made to change Muslim personal law which he called "a question of religion". The appellant had also made statements implying that Chagla was a supporter of this policy of change in what Bukhari called "a matter of religion" for Muslims. The High Court had held that these statements amounted to a violation of Section 123(3A) of the Act, on the ground that Bukhari's language was calculated to promote hostility between Hindus and Muslims. It opined that, in the appellant's mind, ,the Congress stood for the Hindu majority. We think that the language employed, viewed in the context of its purposes, could also fall within the purview of Section 123(3) of the Act inasmuch as Chagla was represented as a candidate advocating what was contrary to Bukhari's view of Muslim religion. Indeed, the words used by Bukhari could be said to have even graver implications. However, we think that it was sufficiently unrestrained and irresponsible so as to promote feelings of hostility between different classes of citizens of India on ground of religion and also directed personally against Chagla, an alleged supporter of an assumed attack on Bukhari's relion. We do not find sufficient reason to differ from the view adopted by the High ,Court that these statements amounted to electoral offences struck by Section 123(3A) of the Act.

The third speech containing objectionable matter was proved to been delivered by the appellant on 2-3-1972 at Saifi Jubilee Street within his own constituency. Its contents are proved by a full transcript made by Police Stenographer Sheikh, of which an English translation was before the Court, and by the oral evidence of Ansari corroborated by Ansari's notes. It contained allegations against Chagla's faithfulness to Muslim religion on the ground that he had advocated inter-communal or inter-caste marriages and that he wanted a Hindu to be a member of the Hai Commit-tee. After the usual fulminations against Chagla, the appellant flung a question addressed to Chagla. It was translated : "With what check you say that you are a representative of ours"? In addition, there were references to riots in which only Muslims were alleged to have been killed. There was also the usual statement that Muslim personal law was a matter of religion to Muslims. Bukhari then declared that if this law was sought to be changed, Muslim league candidates "would become such a wall' for them against Which they will break their beads". Bukhari claimed that he could die for Islam. He then said: "God has blessed us that every drop of our blood would give birth to thousands of Bukharis".

It appears to us that the High Court was right in construing the speech as highly inflammatory. It certainly. amounted to the assertion that Muslim religion (or, what Bukhari thought it was) was in danger and could only be saved by man like Bukbari and not by Chagla. We think that it is a fair construction on the speech to hold that it amounted to at least a violation of Section 123(3) of the Act. We think that it was also struck by Section 123(3A) of the Act.

The-fourth speech of the appellant, said to contain offending matter, was shown to have been delivered on 6-3-1972 at Bara Imam Road within the appellant's constituency. It was tape recorded by Sub Inspector N. A. Khan. In it, after the usual accusations, Chagla is attacked in the following words :

"At the moment we are in such a war in which our opponent is such a person who is playing with our religious affairs. He considers us to be a community whose conscience is dead".

The High Court rightly held it to be a violation of Section 123(3) of the Act.

Another part of the speech which the High Court is held to be violative of Section 123 (3A) of the Act runs as follows

"We have not signed any deed of slavery for the Government. When we feel that this Government is working against us, our rights are being crushed, our religious affairs are being interfered with, then will rise openly against it., We would rise like a wall cemented with lead. Then who would bang with this wall, would get his head broken. No harm would be done to us".

It could be argued that, even if it did not directly contravene the letter of Section 123(3A) of the Act, it was an incitement to violence...

We, however, do not think it necessary to go further into this question here. We are not prepared to disagree with the opinion of the High Court about this speech. The High Court had rightly concluded that, in the appellant's mind, the Congress Govt. constituted "Hindu Raj

The fifth objectionable speech of the appellant was shown to have been made on 6-3-1972 at Saifi Jubilee Street within the Kumbharwada constituency. This speech was heard by Sub-Inspector Kulkarni who had made notes containing the gist of all the speeches delivered at the meeting. Nothing was brought out to cast any doubt on the veracity of Sub-Inspector Kulkarni, who appeared as a witness and gave out the contents of the appellant's speech. In the speech, the appellant had attacked Chagla and his family on the ground that Chagla had advocated the inclusion of Hindus in the Haj Committee. Bukhari alleged that Chagla's wife, a Hindu lady called Nalini, his son Ashok, as well as Chagla used to attend the mosque as well as the temple. Bukhari went so far as to state that Chagla should be excluded from Muslim localities. Bukhari alleged that Chagla and his family pleased neither Allah nor Bhagwan. In other words, Bukhari, apart from making a direct attack on-the alleged religious beliefs and practices of the Chaglafamily, clearly conveyed to the bearers that Chagla was an unfit person, on the ground of his mixed religious faith and practices, to represents Muslims Bukhari had also called upon Muslims to unite against such a person if they wanted their religion to survive. The High Court had very rightly held that these statements contravened the provisions of Section 123(3) of the Act.

The sixth and the last speech containing offensive matter was shown to have been made on 6-3-1972 at Chowki Mohalla Underia Street which, although outside the Kumbharwada constituency, was so situated as to attract the voters from the Kumbharwada constituency hardly 600 ft. away. The speech was tape recorded by Sub-Inspector N. A. Khan. In this speech, the appellant again attacked Chagla and repeated what, according to him, he had also stated at another meeting, that is to say, that Chagla was neither a good Hindu nor a true Muslim so that neither God nor Bhagwan was pleased with him. He compared Chagla to a Dhobi's dog who neither belonged to the Dhobi nor to the Ghat. The appellant, while thus attacking, the alleged personal beliefs and practices of Chagla, obviously in an attempt to induce the voters to refrain from voting for Chagla, prayed to God for success so that no one may be able to attack the religion of Bukhari.

The whole outlook revealed by the speeches of Bukhari is that of a medeival crusuder who had embarked on a Jehad for extirpation of the heresy or "kufr" which, in Bukhari's imagination, was represented by Chagla and his party. We do not consider such speeches to have any place in a democratic set up under our Constitution-. Indeed, they have none in the world of modern science which has compelled every type of religion, for its own survival, to seek securer foundations than childlike faith in and unquestioning conformity of obediency to an invariable set of religious beliefs and practises.

10 SC/75-20.

We do not think that any useful purpose is served by citing authorities, as the learned Counsel for the appellant tried to do, to interpret the facts of the case before us by comparing them to the very different facts of other cases.

In all such cases, the line has no doubt to be drawn with care so as not to equate possible impersonal attacks on religious bigotry and intolerance with personal ones actuated by bigotry and intolerance.

As already indicated by us, our democracy can only survive if those who aspire to become people's representatives and leaders understand the spirit of secular democracy. That spirit was characterised by Montesquieu long ago as one of "virtue". It implies, as the late Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru once said, ",self discipline". For such a spirit to prevail, candidates at elections have to try to persuade electors by showing them the light of reason and not by inflaming their blind and disruptive passions. Heresy hunting propaganda on professedly religious grounds directed against a candidate at an election may be permitted a theocratic state but not in a secular republic like ours. It is evident that, if such propaganda was permitted here, it would injure the interests of members of religious minority groups more than those of others. It is forbidden in this country in order to preserve the spirit of equality, fraternity, and amity between rivals even during elections. Indeed, such prohibitions are necessary in the interests of elementary public peace and order.

Learned Counsel for the appellant submitted that if we considered the substance of what was said by the appellant it would only amount to a plea that the voters should support one who opposes any change in Muslim personal law as against another 'who wanted to change it. If change of personal law is, it is suggested, only a secular matter, opposition to its change could not become an appeal on grounds of religion. To accept this argument would be to view the appeal to the voters after turning it upside down, or, perhaps, inside out. We are not concerned so much with the real nature of what is opposed or supported as with the grounds on which a candidate claims support over a rival We have to primarily examine the cloak which the appeal wears to parade in and not only what lies beneath it. If all human activity in this world could be labelled "secular", on the ground that it appertains to "this world" as against "the other world", all religious thought and activity could be described as "secular", as it takes place in this world. But, the term it not used so broadly. It is a convenient label to distinguish all that is done in this world without seeking the intervention or favour of or propitiating a Superhuman or Divine Power or Being from that which is done professedly to please or to carry out the will of the Divinity. Secularism, in the realm of Philosophy, is a system of Utilitarian ethics, seeking to maximize human happiness or welfare quite independently of what may be either religious or the occult.

Primitive man does practically nothing without making it wear religious garb because his understanding of the physical world, of human nature, and of social needs and realities, is limited. He surrounds customary modes of action with an aura of superstitious re verence. He is fearful of departures from these lest he is visited by Divine wrath. Modern man, with his greater range of scientific knowledge and better understanding of his own needs as well as of the nature of the Universe, attempts to confine religion to its proper sphere--that where he reaches a satisfying relationship between himself and the Divinity he believes in so as to get an inner strength and solace which enable him to overcome psychological crises or fears when confronted with disturbing or disrupting events, such as a Death, or their prospects. He does not permit his religion, which should be essentially his individual affair, to invade what are property the spheres of law, politics, ethics, aesthetics, economics and technology, even where its administration is institutionalised and it operates as a social force. The Secular State, rising above all differences of religion, attempts to secure the good of all its citizens irrespective of their religious beliefs and practices. It is neutral or impartial in extending its benefits to citizens of all castes and creeds. Maitland had pointed out that such a state has to ensure, through its laws, that the existence or,exercise of a political or civil right or the right or capacity to occupy any office,or position under it or to perform any public duty connected with it does not depend upon the profession or practise of any particular religion. Therefore, candidates at an election to a legislature, which is a part of "the State", cannot be Allowed to tell electors that their rivals are unfit to act as their representatives on grounds of their religious professions or practices. To permit such propaganda would be not merely to permit undignified ;personal attacks on candidates concerned but also to allow assaults on what sustains the basic structure of our Democratic State.

Our Constitution and the laws framed thereunder leave citizens free to work out happy and harmonious relationships between their religions and the quite separable secular fields of law and politics. But, they do not permit an unjustifiable invasion of what belong's to one sphere by what appertains really to another. It is for Courts to determine, in a case of dispute, whether any sphere was or was not properly interfered with, in accordance with the Constitution, even by a purported law. The validity of Section 123 (2), (3) and (3A) has not been questioned before us. And, we have explained above what these provisions are meant for.

To return to the precise question before us now, we may repeat that what is relevant in such a case is what is professed or put forward by a candidate as a ground for preferring him over another and not the motive or reality behind the profession or ostensible ground that very secular or mundane. It is the professed or ostensible ground that matters. If that ground is religion, which is put on the same footing as race, caste, or language as an objectionable ground for seeking votes, it is not permissible. On the other band, if support is sought on a ground distinguishable from those falling in the prohibited categories, it will not be struck by Section 123 of the Act whatever else it may or may not offend. It is then left to the elect-orate to decide whether a permissible view is right or wrong.

According to his own professions, the appellant wanted votes for himself on the ground that he staunchly adhered to what he believed to be Muslim religion as contrasted with Chagla who did not. There is no doubt whatsoever in our minds that the High Court had rightly found the appellant guilty of the corrupt practices defined by the provisions of Section 123(2), 123(3) and 123(3A) of the Act by making the various speeches closely examined by us also.

Lastly, we have before us the order for costs made by the High Court in the following terms :

"Having regard to the provisions of Section 99 of the Act and Rules 24 and 26 of the Rules framed by this Court under the Act, I order the first respondent to pay to the petitioner the sum of Rs. 12,000/- for costs. I also order the first respondent to pay to the second respondent the sum of Rs. 3,000/- for costs. There will be no order in regard to costs of the other respondents as they have not filed written statements or appeared at the hearing."

We think that, although Section 99 of the Act may permit the award of special costs in suitable cases, and, although, the appellant has been found guilty of corrupt practices of quite an offensive kind, yet, the order for costs appears to us to err on the side of severity. if 'the respondent Chagla is aggrieved in such a manner that he has grounds for some actionable claim against the appellant, he can, if so advised, take other steps which may be open to him under the law. An order for costs should not become a substitute for such other action with which we are not concerned here. Moreover, in the case before us, the petition itself was not filed by the 2nd respondent Chagla. In these circumstances, we do not think that there should have been an order for costs payable by the appellant to the second respondent Chagla. We, therefore. set aside the order awarding Rs. 3,000/- as costs to Cbagla. We also reduce by half the costs awarded to the successful petitioner, that is to say from Rs. 12,000/to Rs. 6,000/-. We, however, think that the appellant must pay respondents 1 and 2 in this Court their costs occasioned by his appeal to this Court.

The result is that, subject to the modifications of the order for costs, to the extent indicated above, this appeal is dismissed with costs to respondents 1 and 2 on whose behalf appearance was put in.

P.H.P. Appeal dismissed.

Misuse of Liberties and tolerance ?

Question : Do these Lawyer have the guts to file cases against MASJIDs that do NOT let women inside ??

Is this NOT misuse of liberties and misuse of tolerance in the NAME OF FEMINISM ??


http://tinyurl.com/lx32j

Sabarimala: Writ In SC To Allow Women To Enter Shrine July 30, 2006

Indian Young Lawyers Association (IYLA) and a group of women lawyers have filed a writ petition in the Supreme Court seeking directions to the Kerala Government and the head priest (Thanthri) of Sabari Mala temple to ensure that women devotees are not prevented from entering the shrine.

The petitioners have described the ban imposed on the entry of women in the temple under section 3(b) of Kerala Hindu places of public worship (Authorisation of Entry) Rules 1965 as invalid as it violated Articles 14, 15, 25 and 51A (e) of the Constitution of India.

The petition filed through Ravi Parkash Gupta, advocate, has also pleaded that the impugned rule is against Hindu religion which accorded a dignified place to women and does not permit discrimination on the basis of gender.

The respondents in case are state of Kerala, Travancore Devaswom Board, The chief priest, Sabari Mala Temple, The District Magistrate, Pathanamthitta and the Devaswom Commissioner, Travancore Devaswom Board.

The impugned rule says that women at such times during which they are not by custom and usage allowed to enter a place of public worship would not be allowed in.

By custom, the deity at Sabari Mala is considered as a "brahmachari" performing penance in the forest. As such, there is no restriction on entry of young girls before puberty and women after menopause.

Recently, a controversy was kicked off by Kannada film actor Jayamala, who claimed to have not only entered the temple but also touched the deity inside the sanctum sanctorum. According to temple rites in Kerala, only the priests are allowed in the sanctum sanctorum.

Kerala High Court , in its 1993 judgment, had upheld the validity of the rule banning the entry of women between the age of 10-50 years in the temple. The court had gone to the extent of directing the State of Kerala to provide all assistance including the police forces to implement the ban order.

(UNI)

Death Taxes and Maintenance

Death Taxes and Maintenance

you see I can't be without writing my 2 cents... ! So garrulous I am, my 2 cents is littering the net and blocking the bandwidth !!

However since I can't control my urge when such a good topic pops up, I thought,... well... I thought ... I thought of adding my 2 cents here :-)

An important question has been raised here

Question :
1. Can a married man who later develops love for (or intimacy with or an affair with ...) with another UN MARRIED woman be prosecuted...?? if yes, by whom ?


2. Please note the essential ingredients here
2.1. We are assuming that the the man is married to a female - say Mrs. X. This is his first !!!

2.2. He has an affair with another UN MARRIED WOMAN say MISS . Y ! (not some one elses wife !)

2.3. The Second female (friend / ... whatever !!) is well aware of the first marriage

2.4. the second female is just a friend. i.e. this chap is NOT stupid enough to go around the fire marrying her !! This chap MAY or MAY NOT HAVE had sex with her !

2.5. and vinayak is NOT advocating morals here !!!


3. Under these circumstances
3.1. the man cannot be prosecuted by the wife (I didn't say first wife, I just said wife !!)

well .. that's my 2 cents worth !!


4. For all the bleeding heart liberals out there
4.1. ain't the above liberal ??


5. For the bleeding heart feminists out there ...

who cares ??? !

>>
>>I think in my case the girl can't make charge on me.
>>If she is living me after knowing that I am married
>>and the case is pending on court.
>>

By the way she can charge you MAINTENANCE as per S. C of India !

If they told you can't escape from Death and taxes, I suggest you add maintenance to the list

regards
vinayak

PIL

A victim Husband had asked me this question

This is with regard to my question on PIL
Can it be filed by my cousin? [husband's cousin]

As evidence, can we produce wife's private petition?
[the wife has filed a private petition alleging dowry
demands] or a complaint from the wife as evidence ?

In her complaint her witnesses are: her father,
mother, mother's sister, mother's brother - basically
her own family with no outside witnesses

Can this PIL be filed only against her or only
against her father or all others in the family ?
pls advice if u know.

REPLIES :

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION

P.I.L. - is basically Public INTEREST litigation

PIL - basis : There has to be SOME public grievance to file a PIL

Please read the recent Dayanidhi Maran ~ BSNL etc case. The judge actually came down upon (scolded) the guy who filed the P.I.L. !!! as it was NOT founded on a proper public grievance


also read more about PIL s
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.helplinelaw.com/docs/pub-i-litigation/index.php


WHEN CAN A PUBLIC INTEREST LITIGATION BE FILED?
http://www.helplinelaw.com/docs/pub-i-litigation/01.php

WHO CAN FILE A PUBLIC INTEREST LITIGATION?
http://www.helplinelaw.com/docs/pub-i-litigation/02.php

AGAINST WHOM A PUBLIC INTEREST LITIGATION CAN BE FILED?
http://www.helplinelaw.com/docs/pub-i-litigation/03.php

So, just the fact that there is 1 case against you will NOT lead to victory in a PIL. In fact the courts will REJECT such "private" INTEREST litigation !!

You will have to rope in quite some Dowry cases (or get some authentic statistics) and file a PIL

As at the date of this reply, an effort is being made by the SaveIndianFamily group to rope in as many victims of False Dowry complaints to file a PIL

Pl. consult a GOOD lawyer for strategies before filing a PIL

regards
Vinayak
01st August 2006


--


regards
vinayak


My post above is Subject to
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1. my idea of *self help* which is very essential :
http://tinyurl.com/pxcfz

2. standard disclaimers as in http://tinyurl.com/947u9